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Europe is investing heavily in trains

nytimes.com

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Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#151

Post by anamax »

sschueller wrote: post #76
mywittyname wrote: post #17

Time is money, so I don't think trains can ever compete with flying for long-distance travel (>1000miles). They could do like the USA does and make flying such a time-consuming pain in the ass that it's rarely worth it for trips under 5 hours.

I can hop in a train at Zürich main station in Switzerland and be in Paris in 4 hours or I can get in another one and be in Milan in 3 and half hours. On my trip I can use the internet, go to the restaurant or relax in the quiet carriage. No turbolance, no weather delays and the ride is very quiet. How much work can you really get done going via airplane? How much time do you waste going through security and how well…

Zurich to Paris (489km) is shorter than San Francisco to Los Angeles (559km).

Europeans think that 100km is a long way while Americans think that 100 years is a long time.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#152

Post by wasmitnetzen »

saddlerustle wrote: post #86
simonsarris wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mentioned near the end of the article but the reason those short domestic flights are so cheap in Europe is that commercial kerosene is currently tax exempt in every single EU member state. Jet fuel is cheaper per gallon in the EU than it is in the USA! (or was, before the current war) In typically tax-happy Europe this always struck me as odd, agree it is sad when you find out an airplane ticket is cheaper t…

Yes, but note usually around 30% of the ticket price of a european short-haul flight is already other taxes. This is compared to train tickets that include a 30%+ subsidy

Airports, especially smaller ones, are heavily subsidized in Europe.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#153

Post by pydry »

simonsarris wrote: post #10
Fargren wrote: post #2

Living in Spain, I love trains and take them over airplane when it's an option. However, trains are often around twice as expensive as flying for may routes. I know nothing about trains, but intuitively I would expect the opposite, and I really wish it was more affordable, specially high speed rail.

This is mentioned near the end of the article but the reason those short domestic flights are so cheap in Europe is that commercial kerosene is currently tax exempt in every single EU member state. Jet fuel is cheaper per gallon in the EU than it is in the USA! (or was, before the current war) In typically tax-happy Europe this always struck me as odd, agree it is sad when you find out an airplane ticket is cheaper t…

There's also intense competition among airlines which cuts costs to the bone. That doesnt happen for rail.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#154

Post by jhgb »

lqet wrote: post #65
skrbjc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your perspective from someone close to the situation there. I believe many Americans have a picture of a perfect system in Europe, but the truth is likely different. Can you elaborate on the negative aspects of the train system, as you see it?

A short answer for Germany would be: the system is operating at its absolute limits. The results are employee burnout and bad reliability. An example: a few years ago, they introduced a new way to reduce delays caused by trains arriving so late at their destination that they cannot make their scheduled return trip. This is the so-called "Pofalla-Turn", named after the manager who supported it: if a train has a delay…

> the train will often just stop at some station and the passengers are told "the train ends here". They then have to figure out their journey using alternative trains.

In the Czech Republic, what would happen in that case would be that the railway company would shuttle the passengers to their destination using buses. This doesn't happen in Germany?

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#155

Post by DominikPeters »

lqet wrote: post #26

Here in Germany, for as long as I can remember, the government praises itself every year for investing as much in rail as never before. I have not noticed the service quality to change for the better over the last 15 years. The ever-rising investments seem to be only enough to keep the status quo of the crumbling infrastructure.

That seems wrong. New high speed lines are being built and have recently opened (e.g. Berlin-Munich, soon Stuttgart-Ulm). The number of passengers using high speed trains (ICEs) is steadily increasing: from 75 million trips in 2009 to 99 million trips in 2019. To increase the number of trips like that, lots of investment in rolling stock / signalling / lines is needed. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/162877/

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#156

Post by gpvos »

lrem wrote: post #37
mywittyname wrote: post #17

Time is money, so I don't think trains can ever compete with flying for long-distance travel (>1000miles). They could do like the USA does and make flying such a time-consuming pain in the ass that it's rarely worth it for trips under 5 hours.

It _really_ depends on the distances and sizes of the cities you're going to. Paris-London train is about 3 hours, which is likely less than you'll spend on getting to+from an airport. Paris-Berlin on the other hand is miserable, unless you love trains.

Or unless you take a night train. Get in in the evening, sleep most of the way and wake up at your destination. That can actually save you time compared to a flight, or be a lot more comfortable than, e.g., getting up at 4 AM to take a flight to a meeting in the morning somewhere.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#157

Post by andbberger »

emn13 wrote: post #112
elthor89 wrote: post #11

It is there but I wish there was a more comprehensive network of high speed rail in Europe. Going from Amsterdam to Spain the plane seems to win on price and travel time. One thing that isn’t infrastructure but could easily be improved is buying international train tickets. So often I see that one needs to call or you can only book one month ahead. Surely we could have solved that by now..

Note that if you travel from The Netherlands to Spain you might be traversing 6 different railway electrification systems that vary in critical stuff like voltages (and by more than a factor 10!) and possibly Hz, and some are AC and some are DC (not kidding). Also there will be at least 2 incompatible track gauges involved. And I bet other stuff like communications and routing systems are incompatible and safety crit…

incredible almost everything you said is wrong!

> Note that if you travel from The Netherlands to Spain you might be traversing 6 different railway electrification systems that vary in critical stuff like voltages (and by more than a factor 10!) and possibly Hz, and some are AC and some are DC (not kidding). Also there will be at least 2 incompatible track gauges involved. And I bet other stuff like communications and routing systems are incompatible and safety critical too.

none of this is nearly as problematic as you seem to think it is. modern powertrains traverse various electrification schemes without difficulty. signaling systems are trending towards ETCS, trains that traverse incompatible signaling systems (eg the eurostar) simply carry a set of onboard signaling equipment for each standard. gauge changes are the most challenging technical limitation in your list, but are a solved problem. spanish talgo's regularly change gauges at speed [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH4kt14yGw

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#158

Post by agumonkey »

isaacimagine wrote: post #75
agumonkey wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A youtuber explained that Italy overlayed high speed rail routes now and that it's pretty brilliant. Things are moving.

I live in Italy and can attest that the high-speed rail running along the backbone of the Italian peninsula is really nice: it's clean, faster than a regional flight (no need for security, etc.), quiet, and it's fun to watch the hills roll by out the window.

I only remembered the regional one which was so strange.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#159

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #106

As an American who doesn't drive, the experience of trains in the EU compared to the US is just delightful. Yes, there are super cheap flights and I used them often for longer haul trips but the trains were always amazing- I've done trips including Mariupol to Lviv, Budapest to Berlin, and Berlin to Munich and always had a great experience. The Romania-Chisinau line is quite old but part of its charm. I see a lot of…

Sadly, anyone noticeably younger than me missed the chance to ride the Hellas Express (Dortmund to Athens). 3 days, 2 nights. Rode it twice. Then Yugoslavia came apart, war broke out, and the Hellas Express was no more.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#160

Post by tistoon »

..and Canada is yet the only G7 country to not have a high-speed train.

In fact, in Canada, trains are slow, expensive and not well-deserved that you are better-off using your car or plane ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Barcelona-Madrid | 503km | 2h30 by train | 46$CAD (33 euros)

Toronto-Montreal | 541km | 5h by train | 93$CAD (68 euros)

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