Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#61

Post by Symmetry » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

omarchowdhury wrote: post #21

rwmj wrote: post #8

I've taken LSD and 'shrooms a few times, and while I can understand what Jobs is saying, I think he was wrong. I had mystical experiences where I thought I understood that the whole world was connected together, and I was connected to the world, and other deep insights. I think this was just brain-addled delusion, not any insight into how things really are. That said, I fully support these things being legal, and (fo…

Everything is connected. It is understandable to discard insight on psychedelics as being 'brain-addled delusion' if the materialistic supposition is already implanted. Furthermore, such insight is usually overwhelming with assimilation into baseline consciousness being difficult. However, the same mystical states have been achieved by many without the use of drugs - a gradual onset over a lifetime of discipline.

I'd actually say that the most important consequence of materialism is that everything is connected. There's no sharp boundary between mind and body or self and other, only atoms interacting.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#62

Post by nate_meurer » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:41 PM UTC

sjtgraham wrote: post #13

Jobs was one of a kind, and to attribute his achievements even in part, to hallucinogens is a fallacy. If it was true, there would be more people like Steve Jobs in the world today. I think Steve was wrong on this, as he was wrong on other things, i.e. that pancreatic cancer could be treated with a special diet. Maybe if Steve sought medical attention earlier he would still be with us today changing the world.

> "even in part"

Unless you were a personal friend of Steve Jobs, I don't see how you can possibly support this statement. You're saying that you know, for sure, that Steve's experiences with drugs did not influence his intellectual development or his sense of aesthetics in any useful way?

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#63

Post by dailyrorschach » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:42 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #50

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, you're possibly right. I think the influence (or lack there of) of LSD on Steve Jobs as mildly interesting. I think creativity and ingenuity is undervalued in the industry that HN caters to, but I understand the sentiment that this article or even my comment might be off-topic and that's fine. On this post and (more) on other SteveJobs/LSD posts over the last year, I've seen people nearly talk about mar…

"I've seen people nearly talk about marijuana as if it is the destroyer of worlds, which I don't think any reputable scientist has possibly ever endorsed" Are you denying the negative effects drugs have on many people? Pot may not have many effects on physical health, but it certainly does on mental health. Many people I know that smoke pot have almost no ambition. Pot becomes almost like a second girlfriend. Everyth…

Your welcome to believe that it is bad for you and that you don't want to do it, but I disagree that that should translate to you saying other people can't do something.

We could easily replace pot with any number of substances, even legal psychoactive drugs. There are plenty of alcoholics in this world, does that mean that if I can enjoy alcohol occasionally and responsibly I shouldn't be able to? Many anxiety patients abuse their benzodiazapines, should patients that follow prescribed treatment and benefit from them also be made into villains?

I'm sorry for anyone who becomes dependent upon anything and hope they get help, I have experienced it with members of my own family. I'd like to think that a legal structure and clear education would help (though I don't recall in High School ever being given any instruction on responsible drinking, which should happen in my opinion). But some of us benefit from smoking within reason, from indulging in the rare psychoactive break from reality, that some people have problems with these things - doesn't mean everyone does.

Edit: I realize in the opening I use "you" saying other people shouldn't do it. In your comment, you don't make any explicit mention of supporting prohibition, and was using you there in the plural sense, apologize for the comment.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#64

Post by freemarketteddy » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:43 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #46

melling wrote: post #6

I've never used illegal drugs, and I've never had a desire. However, the one problem we do have by keeping certain drugs illegal is that Americans are destroying countries, like Mexico, where a week doesn't by where a drug gang hasn't killed someone. Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone w…

"Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone who wants to take drugs still does. If certain drugs do have harmful effects then at least the effects will be mostly limited to the people who take them." Mexico is already corrupt without the drugs. Making them legal will give the cartels even more…

you miss the point completely....with legalization there would be practically no difference between a mexican drug cartel and a mexican company that produces acetaminophen.

When was the last time you read about an acetaminophen cartel(you can call it Cold Cartel to make it sound cooler!)

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#65

Post by kgtm » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:43 PM UTC

geogra4 wrote: post #7

melling wrote: post #6

I've never used illegal drugs, and I've never had a desire. However, the one problem we do have by keeping certain drugs illegal is that Americans are destroying countries, like Mexico, where a week doesn't by where a drug gang hasn't killed someone. Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone w…

College students are surrounded by drugs. They flow so freely that it seems like prohibition isn't really working. People who want drugs can get them. I don't do them either, nor do I have the desire but it just seems like only the poor and disadvantaged drug users go to jail.

Not sure about how easy it would be for an out-of-college, non-US person, with no social circle experimenting with such substances get hold of, say, LSD.

Part of the non-legalization problem is that if forces you to go down dark alleys which are certainly not compatible with the all-is-good, geek experimentation philosophy. If forces potential users to associate with the hardcore underground, with all the risks that might entail. On top of that, you will never know what you bought. Testing kits aside, and the futility of trying to scam people on dirt-cheap to produce substances, I would have trouble swallowing anything I wasn't confident I knew it was what it said it was.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#66

Post by saddino » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:47 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #8

I've taken LSD and 'shrooms a few times, and while I can understand what Jobs is saying, I think he was wrong. I had mystical experiences where I thought I understood that the whole world was connected together, and I was connected to the world, and other deep insights. I think this was just brain-addled delusion, not any insight into how things really are. That said, I fully support these things being legal, and (fo…

I think you may be missing the forest for the trees. My personal insight from psychedelics was that what I perceived as "reality" was simply wetware converting signals from my senses into perception. When something changes that perception (sometimes dramatically, like patterns on solid objects moving fluidly behind my hands or gazing at shimmering geometric rainbows etched into the walls) one understands that reality is just in your head. IMHO that's a powerful construct, especially for an optimist: it's easier to imagine changing the world when the world is so easily changeable in your head.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#67

Post by nate_meurer » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:48 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #50

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, you're possibly right. I think the influence (or lack there of) of LSD on Steve Jobs as mildly interesting. I think creativity and ingenuity is undervalued in the industry that HN caters to, but I understand the sentiment that this article or even my comment might be off-topic and that's fine. On this post and (more) on other SteveJobs/LSD posts over the last year, I've seen people nearly talk about mar…

"I've seen people nearly talk about marijuana as if it is the destroyer of worlds, which I don't think any reputable scientist has possibly ever endorsed" Are you denying the negative effects drugs have on many people? Pot may not have many effects on physical health, but it certainly does on mental health. Many people I know that smoke pot have almost no ambition. Pot becomes almost like a second girlfriend. Everyth…

Great point! I hereby endorse illegalizing second girlfriends as well.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#68

Post by saturdaysaint » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:50 PM UTC

naner wrote: post #33

Sam Harris on LSD: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-...

Great article. I've gone back to that thought "Everything we do is to alter our consciousness" since my first highs.

I went to a church for a concert recently and I was struck with the lengths these people went to in order to alter their consciousness without "drugs". Highly emotionally charged speakers work everyone up. Food and coffee are practically fetishized. There's a nice (albeit kind of unnatural/forced) sense of community that hits certain primal emotional triggers. So yeah, everyone's trying to altering their consciousness.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#69

Post by drivebyacct2 » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:53 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #50

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, you're possibly right. I think the influence (or lack there of) of LSD on Steve Jobs as mildly interesting. I think creativity and ingenuity is undervalued in the industry that HN caters to, but I understand the sentiment that this article or even my comment might be off-topic and that's fine. On this post and (more) on other SteveJobs/LSD posts over the last year, I've seen people nearly talk about mar…

"I've seen people nearly talk about marijuana as if it is the destroyer of worlds, which I don't think any reputable scientist has possibly ever endorsed" Are you denying the negative effects drugs have on many people? Pot may not have many effects on physical health, but it certainly does on mental health. Many people I know that smoke pot have almost no ambition. Pot becomes almost like a second girlfriend. Everyth…

It's not really fair of me to doubt people's anecdotes, but for ALL of the stoners I know, this has never been descriptive of them. Two of the biggest pot heads I know are starting a company and already have a dozen clients, and the others have 6 figure salaries waiting for them on the West coast.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#70

Post by nate_meurer » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 3:54 PM UTC

rick888 wrote: post #46

melling wrote: post #6

I've never used illegal drugs, and I've never had a desire. However, the one problem we do have by keeping certain drugs illegal is that Americans are destroying countries, like Mexico, where a week doesn't by where a drug gang hasn't killed someone. Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone w…

"Illegal drug money is used to finance so much corruption and killing, that there seems to be little value in keeping them illegal, especially considering that everyone who wants to take drugs still does. If certain drugs do have harmful effects then at least the effects will be mostly limited to the people who take them." Mexico is already corrupt without the drugs. Making them legal will give the cartels even more…

So there must be some really enormous cartels engaged in alcohol bootlegging, and "legally partnering up with companies in the US" in the process. Right?