I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself • Hacker News Board

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#131

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:25 AM UTC

hans1729 wrote: post #47

mathieuh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think children will be more successful at outwitting nefarious companies' behavioural scientists than adults are? It is widely acknowledged that companies are successfully applying methods of grabbing and retaining our attention in order to sell us things, so I'm a bit cynical that children, already not renowned for impulse control, will be any better than adults in ignoring that.

The earlier they make their experiences, the earlier they can develop a mature response to abusive stimuli - if taught about the nature of those stimuli . I'm not advocating for giving developing brains blind access to predatory products. I'm advocating to teach them a healthy-as-possible relation with them. And the reasons adults suck at this is just that: because we were never taught to deal with it, because our sc…

I don't know why you would expect schools to do a better job than parents for something like this ?

This is fundamentally a parenting question - and from my limited knowledge of it, pre-teens need a radically different approach than teenagers : for the first (whom we are talking about) you need to be a model, for the second you need to walk a fine line of not antagonizing the likes and values of the tribe they ended in, lest you completely lose any influence you might have too early on.

It's the transition between the two that seems to be particularly hard to pull off here...

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#132

Post by rglullis » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:29 AM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #124

rglullis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Even teachers use Whatsapp to communicate with pupils nowadays. There are messaging platforms that are not dependent on Big Tech. If communication via group chat is so key to the school operations, parents are more than entitled to ask the school to implement a proper platform for it. > Covid made damn sure parents are somewhat paranoid about social contacts, and having people over is still pretty rare. That is y…

good luck being the only parent asking for that when everyone else is fine with whatsapp. it's not just the school you need to convince but every other parent too.

No one can compel you to use WhatsApp. If the school says that they need to have mandatory communication with parents and children through some kind of system, it needs to be universal.

In my kids' kita, I wasn't alone when I said that I didn't want to use WhatsApp. So we created a mailing list. Parents and teachers can still talk on whatsapp if they prefer, but any "official communication" needs to be through email.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#133

Post by bjarneh » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:29 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #28

bjarneh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I may or may not go as far as putting a custom cert on the phone so I can monitor all the traffic -- that will depend on if I catch them violating my trust. You are going to spy on you kids if they violate your trust, what does it take to violate your trust; visit a website that you don't like? How will your kids ever trust you again, if they find out you're spying on them for possible trust-violations?

I made it clear that I would not be spying on them -- that they would have full access to the monitoring and we would review it together.

> that they would have full access to the monitoring and we would review it together.

Can you imagine your own parents asking you for the same (at any age)?

Perhaps it's not technically spying when they know they are being monitored or spied on, but it's not something better...

We always discuss power abuse in terms of corporate bosses, politicians; but parents seem to abuse their power very frequently. Almost everywhere I've worked most of my coworkers have had exactly this attitude. I.e. that they can spy on their kids (cell phone/iPad/computer), or invade their privacy in all sorts of ways, and they always do this to protect them of course, so nice of them. If it were to happen to me, I'd be leaving home as soon as possible at least - and I don't think I'd come back to visit.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#134

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:29 AM UTC

lrvick wrote: post #109

em-bee wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it depends where you are. i agree with your ideas, and i'd like to get there too, but here where i am it is literally impossible to keep in touch with people without a smartphone. giving up that smartphone would result in complete isolation. but that doesn't mean i am addicted to social media stuff, just using messaging for the most part. but also, i grew up before smartphones and i learned to be somewhat disciplined…

In Silicon Valley where I am, everyone tells me it is impossible to live without one here too but that is just not true. I check matrix messages and emails and keep up with people and make plans to meet them when I am in my office, or in a stable location on a laptop. When I am on in the car, taking a walk, at dinner with my family... I don't need to be reachable at that moment. Society teaches you you need to be rea…

[deleted]

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#135

Post by JodieBenitez » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:30 AM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #4

As a parent (of a kid fortunately nowhere near this age) I get this, but I also don't see a way out. You don't want your kid to be that kid who doesn't have a smartphone when all of their peers do. Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah. I do wish that more parents (and society in general) would be more sensi…

> "must have apps"

There is no such thing. All these are dopamine manglers fueled by low-quality content that have no real benefit.

> "my child becoming a pariah"

If having no smartphone is all it takes to be a pariah, I think it's a good thing to be a pariah ! Or more seriously: there are much better ways to socialize than socialize on the phone (like participating in real/non-virtual activities with other people). I guess as the generations goes, people will eventually forget that the notion of social network largely predates telecommunications.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#136

Post by em-bee » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:31 AM UTC

lrvick wrote: post #109

em-bee wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it depends where you are. i agree with your ideas, and i'd like to get there too, but here where i am it is literally impossible to keep in touch with people without a smartphone. giving up that smartphone would result in complete isolation. but that doesn't mean i am addicted to social media stuff, just using messaging for the most part. but also, i grew up before smartphones and i learned to be somewhat disciplined…

In Silicon Valley where I am, everyone tells me it is impossible to live without one here too but that is just not true. I check matrix messages and emails and keep up with people and make plans to meet them when I am in my office, or in a stable location on a laptop. When I am on in the car, taking a walk, at dinner with my family... I don't need to be reachable at that moment. Society teaches you you need to be rea…

I check matrix messages and emails and keep up with people and make plans to meet them when I am in my office, or in a stable location on a laptop.

that only works because you have alternative ways to communicate with those people. those alternatives are not available here. also as a foreigner i am also expected to do as the locals do, so my argument to use something else holds no sway whatsoever.

The world will get by without being able to reach you for a few hours at a time

and it does. but i don't need to give up my smartphone to achieve that. my notifications are all silent (except for family) and i check messages when i feel like it, not when someone tries to reach me.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#137

Post by lrvick » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:32 AM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #81

lrvick wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a teacher could not figure out how to communicate with a kid without routing those communications through Facebook servers, I would kindly teach them how e-mail, matrix, or other neutral internet protocols work. Honestly -most- of the time I tell people I don't have a phone they say something like "That is super cool, I wish I could do that. My phone has ruined my life. How would you prefer we keep in touch since…

> If a teacher could not figure out how to communicate with a kid without routing those communications through Facebook servers, I would kindly teach them how e-mail, matrix, or other neutral internet protocols work. I get the feeling that your worldview is extremely limited, and you have not experienced the world of kids. We choose schools based on how successful their graduates are. The more CEOs, doctors, etc that…

Online only is fine. The internet is not the problem. Forcing kids to accept data sharing license agreements with private third party companies with a history of abusing that data to get education at a public institution... is the problem.

It should not even be legal to do this and IMO parents in your situation should consider forming student privacy advocacy groups and legal funds demanding students not be discriminated against over legitimate privacy concerns involving third party private companies. I know I will if I am the parent of a kid in that situation and a teacher at the best school for them does not comply with polite help migrating to more accessible solutions.

Force the schools to self host, and use open source software. This is the norm at many major academic institutions in Europe. The US is just way behind because virtually no one is fighting for student privacy here... because most parents don't care about their own privacy so why would they care about that of their child?

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#138

Post by em-bee » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:34 AM UTC

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #104

This is less like being vegan and exactly like being Amish. The Amish, unlike what is usually believed, don't reject technology. They are very careful in adopting technology and seek to be deliberate about what technology to allow in their day to day life. I think this deliberateness unavoidably leads to being a Luddite. The dominant force in human history is the continual development of new technology and it's integ…

what kind of freeloading does rejecting a mobile phone lead to?

sure it restricts me from doing certain things at certain times, but it does not increase my dependence on others compared to having a mobile phone.

please elaborate.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#139

Post by rhn_mk1 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:36 AM UTC

JodieBenitez wrote: post #135

Freak_NL wrote: post #4

As a parent (of a kid fortunately nowhere near this age) I get this, but I also don't see a way out. You don't want your kid to be that kid who doesn't have a smartphone when all of their peers do. Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah. I do wish that more parents (and society in general) would be more sensi…

> "must have apps" There is no such thing. All these are dopamine manglers fueled by low-quality content that have no real benefit. > "my child becoming a pariah" If having no smartphone is all it takes to be a pariah, I think it's a good thing to be a pariah ! Or more seriously: there are much better ways to socialize than socialize on the phone (like participating in real/non-virtual activities with other people).…

Good luck socializing in other ways when your group of peers doesn't.

Re: I decided to move away from big tech for my children and myself

#140

Post by bjarneh » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 10:38 AM UTC

dunefox wrote: post #122

jedberg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made it clear that I would not be spying on them -- that they would have full access to the monitoring and we would review it together.

Knowing that your every move is recorded and semi-public is a problem in itself and not far removed from 'spying'.

He says him and his kids are going to "review it together" until they earn his trust, sure sounds like fun.