Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#211

Post by derefr » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 4:09 AM UTC

Ldorigo wrote: post #195

derefr wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China has created a bourgeoisie class which is also the effective monarchy I don’t think you understand the functional meanings of these terms. People like the modern Russian “oligarchs” or their Chinese equivalents are, in function, nobility , whether they are granted any formal titles or not. You’re a noble in function if 1. you helped the current regime gain power; 2. you can use your ongoing necessity to the re…

This was a very interesting clarification, but I don't get the last part. Why would Boeing be nobility?

The American military needs Boeing (and Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, etc.) to supply parts for their jet fighters, missiles, etc.; enough so that if these companies were owned by selfish individuals rather than profit-driven corporations; and those selfish individuals pressed the issue of "maybe not making any more missiles for the military" at just the right time, then they'd not only not be charged with treason, but instead would get whatever they wanted, up-to-and-including having laws rewritten to serve them.

As well, such a hypothetical individual owner of Boeing, together with a few other such individual owners for other military industries, could independently declare a "vote of no confidence" in their country, and "hand over" power to some foreign nation invading them, simply by cutting off war-time logistical supply at just the right time.

These types of power, are exactly the sorts of power that made classical aristocrats, aristocrats, rather than just courtiers.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#212

Post by derefr » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 4:19 AM UTC

eloff wrote: post #78

derefr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historians would point toward a pressure toward democratization of states that occurs as the middle class gains more power. Countries like France and Britain didn't suddenly decide on "parliamentary democracy" as a model out of nowhere; they developed a parliament first, when they were still monarchies, and then the parliament suppressed the monarch. The second estate (nobility) of these countries, which previously f…

While true for England, things went a little differently in France with the French Revolution. I'm not sure if it started as you say, but it ended not much differently than a violent overthrow of the ruling class in other countries.

To be clear, the French Revolution is exactly in line with the example, and part of the definition of it; bloody revolutions are often how the middle class takes power to enact democracy.

Note, though, that the means by which overthrow occurs is mostly orthogonal to its consequences; the important thing is instead who's doing the overthrowing. Most coups are done by a small group, who become a new aristocracy after the coup succeeds. Democratization occurs when, instead, 1. the overthrow is populist in nature, but 2. no power vacuum is created for new aristocrats to step into, as the populace (esp. the borgeoisie) have managed to install a new governmental structure that doesn't require dynasty-driven statesmanship and foreign diplomacy policy.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#213

Post by unityByFreedom » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 5:50 AM UTC

hbarka wrote: post #56

1024core wrote: post #30

I know of one person (my friend's mom) who literally got this procedure done: she needed a new kidney, and they waited till a death row convict came along who was a match. When she was matched, she got a phone call to come over to that particular city quickly, and she went there, and came back a few days later with a brand new pair of kidneys. It was almost like when you give your car in for repair, and when it's rea…

I don’t know anything about Rose Pak but your rumor post feels so vile like political propaganda. Your links have no substantiation whatsoever and you’re comfortable with that?

They said it's a rumor. One way to stop such a rumor would be to stop the practice of taking organs from condemned prisoners.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#214

Post by tempestn » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 6:45 AM UTC

tasuki wrote: post #176

tempestn wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're against organ donations from willing donors that save lives? Are you against other forms of life-saving medicine as well?

The person you're replying to mentioned "poor and desperate people", while you mention the same as "willing donors". Perhaps they're being taken advantage of: they could be in a very bad socio-economic situation through no fault of their own, have no other means to keep themselves fed, or be misled about the potential consequences?

They said, "I'm against all organ "donations". If it is your time to die, it's your time to die."

I agree that paying for organs creates bad incentives. But I think organ donation after (non-capital punishment) death is a Good Thing, and it's hard for me to understand someone being against it.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#215

Post by kaba0 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 7:07 AM UTC

duxup wrote: post #72

elil17 wrote: post #61

I think execution is absolutely wrong and never morally justifiable. However I don’t see why execution + organ harvesting is worse than execution alone.

It certainly could provide some perverse motivations. Any effort to stop executions now includes the fact that potential donors recipients will die.

It supposes that not enough organs are in circulation.

Even with the opt-out donation model of some European countries they usually have surprisingly short waiting lists for most organs, as unfortunately plenty of accidental deaths occur every day.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#216

Post by kaba0 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 7:11 AM UTC

ComradePhil wrote: post #198

zuppy wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because it can be an incentive to kill people for money, due to corruption.

Where's the outrage and incentive debates when fully formed human babies are "aborted" and sent to be burned for biofuel? All done by for-profit companies all the way through. I definitely didn't see it here in HackerNews.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know what a 20 weeks fetus look like? And wtf, why would anyone burn some 30g thingy for biofuel? Especially that plenty of abortions are simply a heavier than usual blood flow, not a surgical operation of getting a baby out of someone, smh.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#217

Post by systemvoltage » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 7:18 AM UTC

moistly wrote: post #171

systemvoltage wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The billionaires of America/EU sold its soul to dictatorships. The rust belt is struggling and the rise of Trump was direct consequence of that.

You need to re-read the stats on Trump voters. They are not all unemployed, uneducated, steel-mill hicks. Not by a looong shot. Your use of stereotypes is a poor strategy.

Holy batman strawman. Elections are hinged by a tiny % of swing voters. These were the 80k or so voters in Swing states. I never said anything about the rest of the voter base.

Respectfully, I suggest before telling others to re-read, some basic understanding of civics, electoral college, constituency and how elections are held would be helpful for yourself.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#218

Post by andy_ppp » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 7:33 AM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #209

andy_ppp wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would probably say, on average, that it works out for the best overall for society? I disagree with them but they have a very different way of looking at things from me. I prefer to think about where others are coming from rather than just condemn them.

Any government putting any people to death is genuinely bad in my opinion.

That's not what we are discussing, we are discussing harvesting organs from death row inmates. I'm against overall due to it being, as you say, the wrong incentives.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#219

Post by raxxorraxor » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:18 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #66

derefr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historians would point toward a pressure toward democratization of states that occurs as the middle class gains more power. Countries like France and Britain didn't suddenly decide on "parliamentary democracy" as a model out of nowhere; they developed a parliament first, when they were still monarchies, and then the parliament suppressed the monarch. The second estate (nobility) of these countries, which previously f…

Notably, this model was repeated in East-Asian countries like South Korea and Taiwan. They managed to transition away from authoritarian rule and democratize without any excess of social tensions. More recently, Central-Eastern Europe has also been broadly successful following the fall of Soviet rule. People love to talk about democracy as if it's somehow in decline as of late, but this couldn't be more wrong.

A dictatorship has the need to define an enemy or threat so that people are fine to compromise on self-determination. It can be another culture or corruption or anything most people will align themselves against.

If that is absent, criticism towards government increases and its legitimacy is questioned if it cannot provide stable growth anymore.

But I fully agree that democracy is still the most successful model and still striving. A mistake western governments often make lately is to be too afraid of it.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#220

Post by raxxorraxor » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

belter wrote: post #46

alephnan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the west be as rich and Democratic without?

I am afraid the debt is now come due for payment.

We still have the same business incentives. Why wouldn't any CEO of a publicly traded company reduce resource costs as much as possible? If he would not do that, the boards would install someone who does. As an employee for a restricted time, it is optimizing your numbers and economic success until your successor takes over.