Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#181

Post by bakuninsbart » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

cuteboy19 wrote: post #31

option wrote: post #5

Notable is that they remove organs before actual death (however it is defined by medical community) to avoid organ “spoilage”

Hopefully the "patient" was already brain-dead?

This is exactly the core issue of the paper, and a lot of inference is done on the side of the authors, which they correctly state and discuss. The intro + discussion is far better and much more insightful than the businessinsider article linked here.

* We first conducted a pilot study using highly targeted keyword searches in commercial and academic Chinese-language scientific databases. These searches and the papers they uncovered are presented in Appendix 1. We qualitatively analyzed and classified the resulting 683 papers, during which we developed a criterion for problematic Brain Death Declaration (BDD), and therefore a probable DDR violation.*

We define as problematic any BDD in which the report states that the donor was intubated after the declaration of brain death, and/or the donor was intubated immediately before organ procurement, as part of the procurement operation, or the donor was ventilated by face mask only.

And then later in the discussion:

* The complete list of these 71 papers and excerpts with problematic BDD are in Appendix 2. Examples include:*

“The heart donor was a brain trauma patient. By the time of heart procurement, breathing had ceased. Endotracheal intubation was performed and artificial respiration [established]. The heart beat well. The donor heart was procured …”43

“The donor was intravenously injected with heparin 3mg/kg 1h before the operation… The heartbeat was weak and the myocardium was purple. After assisted ventilation through tracheal intubation, the myocardium turned red and the heartbeat turned strong… The donor heart was extracted with an incision from the 4th intercostal sternum… This incision is a good choice for field operation where the sternum cannot be sawed open without power.”44

“After donor brain death, tracheal intubation was performed as soon as possible for artificial ventilation. The chest was opened quickly, and the ascending aorta and pulmonary artery were infused with cold cardioplegia…”45

“After the donor was confirmed brain dead the trachea was intubated, artificial respiration was established, rapid median sternal incision…”46

“2.1 Obtaining and protecting the donor organs. After the donor's whole body is heparinized, donor is supine, endotracheal intubation is performed through the mouth, and the anesthesiologist intermittently gives oxygen to the lungs by manual balloon pressure. Split the breastbone in the middle.…”47 [0]

I'm a bit shocked that the vast majority of commenters in this thread seem to have at best skimmed the article then went to comment some really ill-informed opinions.

[0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ajt.16969

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#182

Post by rhn_mk1 » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #175

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the details of the Communist party, but today's China is autocratic. It's a mistake to take the democratic principle of "people can enact change" and take it to an autocratic government (and outright contradiction when using the adjective "totalitarian"). Okay, the government is also "people" in some way. But the "people" who can currently enact change are the ones who benefit from the current g…

What is important to understand is that both democratic and autocratic governments depend on legitimacy . No the Chinese military or police would not stand any chance against the true popular will of the Chinese, not for a second. That is why the Chinese government has economic growth targets and social programs and so forth. If they could rule like medieval kings they would. All modern, large states are accountable…

> No the Chinese military or police would not stand any chance against the true popular will of the Chinese, not for a second.

You might reconsider that after reading about the Gwangju uprising https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,3506.0.html?P...

TL;DR: an entire province's will was to oust the government, it ended in a massacre.

Without examples of popular will causing an overthrow of an established, well-organized authoritarian state, I'm going to remain unconvinced that it's possible, or that there's any meaningful accountability to the people from the government - after all, who'll judge or stop them unless they implode?

> they by and large if not support at least tolerate their state,

Of course they are rational, like it's rational to submit yourself to an overwhelming power you can't fight, rather than die trying. That doesn't mean that it's not a problem that would benefit from external help. Quite the contrary, just ask the people who lost their organs.

I take issue with the idea that a victimized society is responsible for its own state or that it can pull itself by the boot straps only if it wanted. If it was true, we would not have had totalitarian states at all.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#183

Post by sizzle » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

beeboop wrote: post #86

belter wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you travel to another country, and come back with new kidneys specially when you are already of old age and so not so high on a donation waiting list?

Is there something about being old that prevents you from traveling on planes or receiving organ transplants?

Life threatening blood clots for one. Deep vein thrombosis is a very real killer in long haul flights.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#184

Post by guilhas » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

ComradePhil wrote: post #168

guilhas wrote: post #91

Everyone in UK is an organ donor by default You might criticise that there is still a death penalty You might criticise the justice system is not good enough But taking the organs from prisoners that were sentenced to be executed that day doesn't sound that unreasonable, if that guarantees better organs to save someone else

> Everyone in UK is an organ donor by default Are you able to opt out?

Yes. It would be quite unacceptable otherwise

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#185

Post by bigbillheck » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

belter wrote: post #81

hbarka wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know anything about Rose Pak but your rumor post feels so vile like political propaganda. Your links have no substantiation whatsoever and you’re comfortable with that?

How do you travel to another country, and come back with new kidneys specially when you are already of old age and so not so high on a donation waiting list?

Steve Jobs travelled to Tennessee and came back with a new liver.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#186

Post by vkou » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

gedy wrote: post #158

vkou wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the western world won't trade with dictatorships, where would all the raw resources that make western lifestyles possible are going to come from? Perhaps you are ready to give up your car, fruit, coffee, electronics, plastics, your detached suburban home, the ability to heat it in winter... And are ready to go work in a clothing sweatshop. But you'll have a hell of a time convincing your neighbours of this.

I guess we'll have to extract these here and manufacture again vs letting NIMBY regulations and cheap labor goons push everything overseas.

So, you're suggesting that we should eat higher costs for everything, lower wages, harder and more dangerous work, and maybe throw in Beijing air quality as a bonus.

Which of all of these new, unregulated extraction and manufacturing jobs will you be signing up to do? Will you be doing your fifty hours in the unregulated zinc mine, or your sixty-five in the Nike jeans sweatshop?

Productivity isn't like money, you can't just turn on a printing press and make more of it.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#187

Post by kaba0 » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:52 PM UTC

jakubadamw wrote: post #163

shakow wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I would qualify any post-Soviet Eastern European country (Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, ...) as a boradly successful. Typically, they are highly corrupted, wealth amass in a tiny sliver of the population, they are hemorrageing their youth and their brains, their political spectrums can be resumed as ‶corrupted right-wing guy sucking on the EU tits″ and ‶corrupted even more far-right guy sucking on Russia/Ch…

Look, I'm Polish, I'm critical of the current Polish government for a variety of reasons (including its stance on European Union), but your description of what Poland is today is just outrageous. > wealth amass in a tiny sliver of the population Yeah, right. /s https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.GINI?locations=P... > their political spectrums can be resumed as ‶corrupted right-wing guy sucking on the EU tits…

Though as you also mention, grandparent commenter’s words are sort of true of Hungary unfortunately.. (I live there)

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#188

Post by bllguo » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #135

Barrin92 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well basic math, there's more than a billion of them. How do you think the Communist party displaced the old regime? If the people were to march on Beijing the government would cease to exist within one day, which is of course why it actually tries really hard to keep the people happy. This is of course orthogonal to both the topic at hand and reality. The Chinese are quite content with their government and abuse of…

I'm not familiar with the details of the Communist party, but today's China is autocratic. It's a mistake to take the democratic principle of "people can enact change" and take it to an autocratic government (and outright contradiction when using the adjective "totalitarian"). Okay, the government is also "people" in some way. But the "people" who can currently enact change are the ones who benefit from the current g…

1984 was "billions of masses"? None of your examples show the majority will being crushed. Obviously a small movement on the scale of thousands cannot (and should not) overthrow a regime.

The point is there is no problem. You'll continue to be popular in your own circles assuming the Chinese people are victimized, but nobody actually from there will care a whit for your paternalism. Frankly if people are going to keep opining on China there is zero excuse to be unaware of the numerous polls and studies (from respected Western organizations) on Chinese approval of their government.

How do you reconcile "Ukraine deserves self-determinism" with "we must enforce Western ideals on the rest of the world"? Moreover, how can you speak so brazenly on the heels of the utter failure of doing exactly what you preach in Afghanistan?

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#189

Post by tablespoon » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

kjeetgill wrote: post #115

beeboop wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the first result on google from a reputable source says she went to China to get a transplant: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-rose-pak-20160919-... And China has an extremely well documented practice of doing exactly what OP said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

I'm not disputing anything said, but just a heads up since I also heard about the Fulan Gong organ harvesting thing years before I heard any thing else about what Fulan Gong even is: read up on it. It has its own weird nest of conspiracy around it. Not authoritative, but I thought this was interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JaPzJKycxc

> I'm not disputing anything said, but just a heads up since I also heard about the Fulan Gong organ harvesting thing years before I heard any thing else about what Fulan Gong even is: read up on it. It has its own weird nest of conspiracy around it.

Honestly, who cares? IMHO, Fulan Gong is only notable as an example of the kind of insane persecution the Chinese government can conduct against a group. They probably weren't the most sensible to begin with (which is no excuse for their persecution), and the level of persecution they've received it probably enough to make anyone an nut (e.g. going all in for Trump). Focusing too much on that mainly has the effect of distracting from the persecution.

And I do believe they're persecuted. Besides all the documented stuff, the (Chinese) mother of one of my friends can't travel outside her hometown because she was (mistakenly) put on some list of Fulan Gong people.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#190

Post by iratewizard » Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

pharke wrote: post #167

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could all be running operations in Mexico. That could have become the North American SZ.

Everyone always goes straight to outsourced manual labor as a solution. It's a bad solution. If we weren't a nation run by corrupt middle managers trying to inflate their own salaries and sense of purpose we'd have stuck with the tried and true method of innovating on the manufacturing process itself making it more automated and less dependent on human labor. Human labor is always slow, prone to mistakes, and expensi…

China also doesn't share our value of craftsmanship. By letting them own a portion of our supply chain, they own a lot more than just the manual labor. They put us in situations where measuring temperature means buying an antique mercury thermometer, buying a $400 nist certified alcohol one, or getting Chinese made garbage that is not accurate within 2°.