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Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

businessinsider.co.za

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Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#51

Post by chrischen »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #22
sonicggg wrote: post #13

So China infringes on human rights, in other news "water is wet". Not really newsworthy. I would be shocked if it was Iceland or Norway doing that. As much as we hate hearing about it, only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime. Having met many Chinese students abroad, I'd say they are OK with this happening. Either they are apathic, or supportive of their totalitarian regime.

> only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime What makes you think they have any power at all? This is not what history teaches us about totalitarian regimes.

What makes you think the Chinese people don’t support their government? People will support their government if they can deliver the basic needs like economic growth and prosperity. At least on that front most people agree China has had some of that over the last 20 years. It’s safe to assume if that keeps up Chinese citizens can be pretty complacent.

The needs and wants of a foreigner for the Chinese government will be vastly different from those of a citizen of China. For example we are primarily concerned with human rights, their cooperation in global politics, and other things that concern us as non citizens. But to a citizen they want jobs, food, a stable local economy. These are things China historically did not have, and which can at least be partially credited to the government for providing. By our metrics, yes they do poorly, but then our wants for the Chinese government are pretty much completely detached from that of a local citizen.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#52

Post by next_xibalba »

moistly wrote: post #28

The biggest mistake western democracies have made is to trade with dictatorships. Enriching them has not encouraged them to become progressive, it has only made them more powerful. We have sown the seeds of our own destruction through our complicity.

Strategies that isolate hostile or naturally adversarial countries don't seem to work either. Just look at North Korea. Arguably, the North Korea situation has resulted in much worse net violence and human suffering per capita than, say, the West's fraught trade entanglement with China.

> sown the seeds of our own destruction through our complicity

The future is unwritten. Actors behave reflexively. Imagine how bad the future looked in July of 1940 after Germany conquered France. It must have appeared as though they'd soon conquer all of Europe, with the rest of the world to follow. And yet, a few short years later, Nazi Germy was annihilated.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#53

Post by fennecfoxen »

afry1 wrote: post #15
sonicggg wrote: post #13

So China infringes on human rights, in other news "water is wet". Not really newsworthy. I would be shocked if it was Iceland or Norway doing that. As much as we hate hearing about it, only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime. Having met many Chinese students abroad, I'd say they are OK with this happening. Either they are apathic, or supportive of their totalitarian regime.

I am astounded by the lack of empathy in what you've written.

What is he supposed to write instead? This is not news. There's new studies confirming it, but we've known for decades China is ruled by a totalitarian regime that treats human life as disposable, and we've heard rumors of this for decades, and of much, much worse.

No one with power has done anything about it. No one with power wants to do anything about it. Instead we have world leaders praise China for its boldness in the coronavirus lockdowns, politicians and pundits who fantasize — let me use Thomas Friedman's words here — "What if we could just be China for a day? I mean, just, just, just one day. You know, I mean, where we could actually, you know, authorize the right solutions ..." China has power. They envy it. They want it. They want us to be less free and more like that. It's more common than not. Your political party is not immune. If you're lucky, they're struggling to engage with the idea of China as a Major Geopolitical Risk (and it makes them somewhat uncomfortable to admit even that) or they're trying to be tough on China as a general play for Economic Protectionism, an excuse to serve the self-interest of a narrow slice of their constituency. (America First!!! Let's pay $900k/yr/job to save $100k/yr jobs in the steel industry!!! This is the only road to prosperity!!!)

You chide GP poster for his cynicism, essentially. Why shouldn't we all be cynical? I'm sorry, you're late to the show and probably missed out on the shock factor by a good decade or so, possibly longer.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#54

Post by happytoexplain »

triyambakam wrote: post #24
afry1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am astounded by the lack of empathy in what you've written.

It seems more like OP is just being realistic.

One can be realistic and unnecessarily unempathetic at the same time.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#55

Post by belter »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #31
option wrote: post #5

Notable is that they remove organs before actual death (however it is defined by medical community) to avoid organ “spoilage”

Hopefully the "patient" was already brain-dead?

Nope.

Pioneered by the Japanese during World War II. Also no anesthesia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Edit: I would like to point out the reason why I said no based on this resource:

"Execution by organ procurement: Breaching the dead donor rule in China": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30921371

The practices of Unit 731 are more well documented that some of the Nazi crimes.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#56

Post by hbarka »

1024core wrote: post #30

I know of one person (my friend's mom) who literally got this procedure done: she needed a new kidney, and they waited till a death row convict came along who was a match. When she was matched, she got a phone call to come over to that particular city quickly, and she went there, and came back a few days later with a brand new pair of kidneys. It was almost like when you give your car in for repair, and when it's rea…

I don’t know anything about Rose Pak but your rumor post feels so vile like political propaganda. Your links have no substantiation whatsoever and you’re comfortable with that?

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#58

Post by loceng »

zozbot234 wrote: post #38
space_fountain wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re going to be killing people anyway it’s easy to start thinking that their organs shouldn’t go to waste, of course this is starting you on a slippery slope that’s better not even to start on

This is of course fallacious because waste is inherent to criminal punishment - you're literally inflicting something undesirable on someone, at a cost to yourself. Making sure that the costs of criminal punishment are shared helps keep every involved party honest. This is also an argument against things like privatized prisons and prison slavery in the U.S. If you're going to enslave prison inmates at all (and the U…

At the same time you're incentivizing capital punishment and perhaps incentivizing persecution of people of a specific donor match, so then magically sooner than later enough donors become available to fill the needs of a wait list until the desired recipient has the organ(s) they need - or they may simply need a single donor and get to skip any lines, if that level of corruption actually exists in that society.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#59

Post by alephnan »

simonh wrote: post #50
alephnan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the west be as rich and Democratic without?

Growth would have been slower sure, but we were doing fine before and we'd have done fine without them, but they would still have rotted and by now may well have been forced to reform through economic failure.

> we'd have done fine without them

There should not be ongoing supply chain issues then.

> they would still have rotted

This sounds sinophobic. Your profile mentions you’re from London. Yes, China was doing fine for a millennia, too, then the British colonizers brought opium and drugged their people.

> have been forced to reform through economic failure.

Yes, they did that. It’s cause embracing capitalism and free trade.

Re: Chinese inmates had hearts or lungs removed during executions, study says

#60

Post by eganist »

hbarka wrote: post #56
1024core wrote: post #30

I know of one person (my friend's mom) who literally got this procedure done: she needed a new kidney, and they waited till a death row convict came along who was a match. When she was matched, she got a phone call to come over to that particular city quickly, and she went there, and came back a few days later with a brand new pair of kidneys. It was almost like when you give your car in for repair, and when it's rea…

I don’t know anything about Rose Pak but your rumor post feels so vile like political propaganda. Your links have no substantiation whatsoever and you’re comfortable with that?

Also very much out of left field. If this is as common as claimed, only one example would've been needed (and more examples could've been sourced with less controversial contexts). The second example:

1. isn't verified ("rumor"), and

2. mentions many points entirely incidental to the operation itself and doesn't materially contribute to the topic of organ harvesting from inmates.

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