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MIT graduate students vote to unionize

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Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#361
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be? International workers have the same labor rights that American workers do.

Yes, and working is a violation of the student visa.

That is incorrect. On-campus employment is allowed in the student visa and graduate student appointments are typically RA positions which qualify as employment under this definition.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#362
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you made tolls on a toll road optional, the road owners would not be able to keep up with maintenance, yet I think most drivers value the road...

So what's this 'road' in your analogy that was installed by the union, that wasn't there before, and that introduced a lot of utility, comparable to a road?

It's actually a decent comparison, because a large percentage of the cost/benefit is building the road/union, and comparatively little is the maintenance. But the tolls/dues remain the same across.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#364

The lack of protections for graduate student workers is shocking IMO, especially in student housing. Grad student workers of course don't get paid vacation, sick time, or anything like that. But you can't even just lower your hours since you're paid with a fixed stipend. Contracts may be largely 20 hours per week, but they have all kinds of carve-outs where the university can force you to work up to 30/40 hours, like…

Universities are subject to very little oversight and regulation. They basically are selling a luxury good to very unsophisticated buyers (you can't get much less sophisticated than the average 18yo). A lot of what they are selling will not be worth the time or money put in. Instead of subsidizing them like crazy, the government should be looking into their dodgy practices.

> Universities are subject to very little oversight and regulation.

This varies by state too. Many of the UC's in California right now are basically becoming corporations. They argue that them making more money means they can better serve students, but they routinely lobby for less funding from California. That's because that funding comes with certain conditions, like accepting more Californian students.

The UC I went to, UCI, is facing a huge housing crisis and has been building a ton of new housing, but the amount of in-state students they're accepting hasn't changed since before 2010. Instead they've drastically increased the number of foreign students they've accepted. Those students usually pay more than twice as much as in-state and, counter to narratives about "increased diversity", often come from a very specific class background.

Their whole strategy is basically to wean themselves off of state funding so they can run the UC like a profit-driven corporation

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing that unions get a legal monopoly in this manner, and it is not surprising that, with such rights, they fail their constituents, preferring to amass money and power for a corrupt leadership. Imagine a world with two or three unions per employer and you could actually pick which one you were under. They’d actually have incentives to deliver! But we’ll never have that because it means less lobbying money a…

This is a bad idea for a number of different reasons. I'll highlight one. The actual "competition" wouldn't be among which union the employees joined - rather they would compete to undercut each other on contract negotiation, which would only bolster the employer's hand. There are good reasons why this is not common practice - but there is also no law preventing multiple unions.

Unions are competing both for contracts with employers, but also for employees among other unions. If Union A is demanding but gives good pay, Union B is more laid back but has less reward, and Union C is both demanding and gives poor bay then it will fail as A or B grows.

If there are no competing unions and you're in union C, then you've got no options but to quit or try and topple the union (impossible, effectively).

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#366

I'm very curious to see what the long term effects of unionizing will be in Academia. I'm hopeful and optimistic it will improve things in the long run. Yes there will be some unintended consequences but academic life is already very rough if you're not tenured. Academia likes to cast itself as a true meritocracy. If you work hard and publish good papers you'll do well. In practice it's more of a gerontocracy where s…

We were discussing a potential hire at work a few days ago who suddenly turned down the company's offer for another company despite our team being his "dream place to work" and promising to not make a sudden decision without talking with us first. Turns out he was basically forced to go to this other company by his advisor, who had a lot of funding from this other company, or his advisor would "make graduating very d…

Something similar happened to me. My advisor gave me a bad reference at a place I wanted to work because he wanted me to go somewhere else.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#367
It's news that MIT is doing it, but there is precedent for this in the US. The University of California system (includes Berkeley, UCLA, and UCSC, which had a wildcat strike during COVID) unionized nearly 40 years ago, and have had many labor strikes over the years [0].

[0] https://www.science.org/content/article/grad-student-union-f...

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With code, as long as it works, so what. Plus learning a language requires copying to learn how to do it correctly. Would you want to be required to be completely original learning French? It makes no sense to burn people for doing what it took industry decades to figure out.

> With code, as long as it works, so what. Working as a lab instructor a lifetime ago, I graded two students' C assignments that both worked (mostly) but clearly without understanding what was going on. It took me a while to figure out how they worked; as it turned out, they declared the same variables at the top of each function in the same order. They didn't have globals, they weren't passing values around: the sta…

I had the same experience when I was a TA a long time ago. Reviewing the code to a homework set I noticed that two students mixed up the naming of two variables (I think min/max were switched).

I ran a whitespace sensitive diff and noticed the only difference between the two files was the author name in the header.

The professor sent a sternly worded letter to the class about not cheating, and nothing else came from it AFAIK.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In grad school we definitely had decent labor standards though. I mean, I was worked really hard, but I can't say I was worked any harder than I was in private industry. And the pay wasn't great, but it was more than enough to support myself, and the understanding has always been that you get free tuition as part of the deal, which is pretty great, so that makes up for a lot of the pay deficit. I could see better pay…

As I’m sure you know, Most PhD students stop taking classes by the end of the 2nd year, and focus entirely on research and teaching thereafter, which means that the “free tuition part” is just a sham to avoid classifying PhD students as workers, and to hence avoid paying them for their labour.

Not to mention that PhD students would mostly be self-learning anyway.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were discussing a potential hire at work a few days ago who suddenly turned down the company's offer for another company despite our team being his "dream place to work" and promising to not make a sudden decision without talking with us first. Turns out he was basically forced to go to this other company by his advisor, who had a lot of funding from this other company, or his advisor would "make graduating very d…

The dynamics of academia really surprise me sometimes. When I think of "work", I think of two things: "work" (the actual day to day things you do) and "workplace" (the place your work at). In a traditional workplace, were always taught to value "workplace" over "work" and to never stay at a "workplace" for the "work". That is, if you have a crappy boss and toxic culture, working on a shiny greenfield project isn't go…

> With academia the dynamics are completely different because now "work" and "workplace" occupy the same space, as in they are equally important, with "work" might be even more important than the "workplace". So you get into a situation where you hate the "workplace", but unlike the traditional workplace, you can't simply up and leave because your "work" is far too important, and continuing your "work" at another "workplace" is from everything I read about academia, difficult to say the least.

I think this is a key piece to what makes grad school feel so exploitive. It's almost impossible to switch advisors, let alone universities. This results in a power imbalance that basically doesn't exist anywhere else in the modern, liberal world. If you do switch, it's almost certain to come with a hefty setback in terms of time.

A lot of this could be solved by standardizing the PhD. Passing prelims at school A should mean you don't have to retake prelims if you switch to school B. The fact that you do means you're the victim of a pissing match between universities.

The requirement to make novel contribution to the field is crying out for standardization. How novel? How big? Nobody can tell you. I remember asking my advisor what exactly this meant. Her best answer was just "Ehhh, basically it depends on your committee."

This is absurd. It would be trivial to standardize this. Do away with the committee and the thesis. Put down a number. You publish N journal papers, you get a PhD. But we won't do this because it's this ambiguity they use to exploit grad students further. Everybody ends up doing more work than necessary just to be sure they pass their defense. Fuck academia.

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