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MIT graduate students vote to unionize

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191–200 of 400 posts

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#191

Is this unprecedented for grad students?

I assume you mean in the USA specifically. No, it is not unprecedented for grad students to have a union and a union contract. It has been slowly gaining steam in the USA over the past 20 years -- as the US NLRB keeps changing it's mind about whether graduate students have the legal right to protections to organize unions (and sometimes different for public vs private universities).

I went looking for a list, and found the wikipedia article has some kind of old statistics (anyone wanna try to find newer ones and update it?), but let's you know it's not unprecedented: "As of 2014, there are at least 33 US graduate employee unions, 18 unrecognized unions in the United States, and 23 graduate employee unions in Canada," and "Since 2000, more than twenty campuses have unionized." —https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_student_employee_unio...

I haven't found a complete list, but some mentioned in the wikipedia article are Oregon State University, Michigan State University, Temple University, the University of Washington, and Columbia.

They are still more common at public than private schools, and I think it may be that none of the Ivy League universities have graduate student unions? MIT is not technically an Ivy, but is usually considered in the same tier of prestige/funding/quality. So in that sense MIT unionization is ground-breaking.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#192

I'm very curious to see what the long term effects of unionizing will be in Academia. I'm hopeful and optimistic it will improve things in the long run. Yes there will be some unintended consequences but academic life is already very rough if you're not tenured. Academia likes to cast itself as a true meritocracy. If you work hard and publish good papers you'll do well. In practice it's more of a gerontocracy where s…

This is graduate students unionizing.

Everywhere I’ve seen this, the principal complaints are wages, housing, acknowledging they are workers, and working hours.

Grad students are used as slaves. This is trivial to avoid just by paying them what they actually need to live. This is a university, what they can’t figure this out? No, they just overplayed their hand at the bargaining table.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#193
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had an unusually positive experience with UAW. They own the UC system contract, and negotiated pay caps, lowering grad student pay on some campuses. They also negotiated to discontine coverage for various women's health issues. Just before COVID, UC Santa Cruz went on a wildcat strike because the union negotiated pay for that campus below the cost of living. A bunch of foreign students lost their visas as a resul…

It is amazing that unions get a legal monopoly in this manner, and it is not surprising that, with such rights, they fail their constituents, preferring to amass money and power for a corrupt leadership. Imagine a world with two or three unions per employer and you could actually pick which one you were under. They’d actually have incentives to deliver! But we’ll never have that because it means less lobbying money a…

This is a bad idea for a number of different reasons. I'll highlight one.

The actual "competition" wouldn't be among which union the employees joined - rather they would compete to undercut each other on contract negotiation, which would only bolster the employer's hand.

There are good reasons why this is not common practice - but there is also no law preventing multiple unions.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#194
post #94
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It IS interesting to note that if most unions went dues-optional they'd starve from lack of money. If their members were really convinced of the value that tragedy of the commons wouldn't occur.

If you made tolls on a toll road optional, the road owners would not be able to keep up with maintenance, yet I think most drivers value the road...

So what's this 'road' in your analogy that was installed by the union, that wasn't there before, and that introduced a lot of utility, comparable to a road?

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the reason I'm ambivalent about unionization is that I was involved with the graduate student union when I was in school. The nominal reason for it was to improve working conditions and pay for grad students. In practice, it improved very little, and added a modest amount of overhead, in the form of a union apparatus which fed itself by taking a little bite out of those paychecks every month. To be clear, the ne…

As long as human beings run a union, the union will be self serving.

Who is running the university? Robots?

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#196
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds very much like extortion, and I'm curious how any school with a purported honor code or sense of academic standards could allow it. Even if the student didn't have proof of threats, the situation itself should be enough to get the student a new advisor or oversight with the existing one. I mean "should" in an ideal sense. I think this kind of shit is common.

If the professor in question brings the university a lot of grant money, especially if they're tenured, a lot gets ignored. As for the honor code I cynically suspect it's more about having an item go use against someone when the university chooses, rather than a true standard that all are held to at all times. If nothing else, it's just tough for a large institution to handle all of its problems at once.

Back when I worked as a tutor, we knew a lot about the professors since most of us were also TAs at some point or worked as TAs concurrently. Some were consistent in busting people for cheating, others tried to avoid it at all costs (because they based their self-worth on their Rate My Professor page), but a few were just capricious and arbitrary. On their good side? "Eh, everyone uses Stack Overflow [or forgets to do anything to hide their plagiarism, not even bothering to edit the author name Javadoc comment on the code they copied] every now and then." On their bad side? "Copying others' work is unacceptable, you can either take an F in the course or plead your case to Academic Integrity."

Of course, the ones who showed favoritism were also the ones who practically printed grant money, so nothing ever happened while I was there (and I doubt anything ever will).

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why Academia and Big Tech love immigration. And then there's the argument they use to justify why immigration is good, like diversity, inclusion, globalization, ... which may be valid or not. But isn't it just perfect when your objectives are so closely aligned with what is considered morally right. To regard these agents as moral actors instead of self-serving profit seekers is just lunacy.

Except in general people from other countries may be more amenable to union organizing and joining, since they often come from cultures where unions are viewed more positively than in the US, and where more of the workforce is unionized, and may possibly even have experience themselves with unions, or else have family members who do -- or if not with unions, with other kinds of collective political action of sorts th…

> where more of the workforce is unionized

Is this fact coming from the weighted average of how unionized is the workforce in the diferented countries from which workers comes to USA? Is this true for high and low paying jobs? Are the migrants from these countries representative of the workforce of their country?

Could you provide proof? My first reaction is to be agnostic upon this claim.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#198

As someone who just finished their PhD, I fear these unionization efforts will have the exact opposite effect that the students are aiming for. In particular, many universities provide subsidized housing in some of the most expensive places in the US. Housing is not a bargainable. The direct consequence is that universities will kick graduate students out of the housing, replace them with undergrad students to pay fo…

> Again, as someone who went through this very recently, the problem is the power imbalance between the institution and the students. They have complete control over your supply of labor. I'm pretty sure people were saying the same things during the early labor movements. "They'll just replace you, they have all the control, you'll just screw up your life." The thing is, they were probably right. For a while it reall…

Organizing workers does not necessarily require joining a huge national labor union that was obviously not meant for the type of problems grad students face. It's fucking weird to me that so many schools have joined United Auto Workers. I don't see any real changes to the problems with academic training at any of those schools. And I don't see why UE will be better here. The power imbalance in grad school is very different from the typical labor situations:

1) Grad student roles are extremely heterogeneous compared to laborers. The union at Harvard for example is trying to represent both TAs and RAs, in departments ranging from literature to biology to math, all as part of one collective bargaining agreement. There are huge differences in the problems those students face, and that's before getting into how different student experiences can be even amongst e.g. biology RAs.

2) Grad students receive atypical compensation, not just the degree itself but also things that are clearly not quantified by the union orgs - the (often falsely promised) academic freedom to pursue independent research interests and the time and resources to do some learning for the sake of it. Further, for RAs it can be impossible to untangle work that counts towards the degree requirement and work that is being done in exchange for stipend/other benefits.

3) Graduate school is only a short portion of someone's overall career in the grand scheme of things, while existing unions mainly focus on jobs that can be/often are lifelong. Grad school is by definition a stepping stone. Nobody asks "what do you want to do when you're done being a cop".

4) Most grad students at least enter their programs with the goal of themselves reaching professorship. Auto workers are not trying to build towards owning an automobile factory.

5) There is not a sub-20% acceptance rate for becoming an electrical worker. At many of the schools that are forming unions lately, there are tons of departments with highly competitive admissions processes for the PhD. Some at MIT are easily in the single digits acceptance rate, and this is amongst a specialized pool to begin with.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#199
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What society wants from Academia isn't something you can grind for. Ground breaking research and great education isn't something that comes from working 80 hours a week (most of the time). I'd also suspect that the vast majority of effort in academia is dedicated to simply pleasing the whims of those with power/funding. A union might increase productivity by both a) De-stressing those who are actually doing the work…

>Ground breaking research and great education isn't something that comes from working 80 hours a week (most of the time). is there much evidence for this claim? If one takes a look at the habits and biographies of groundbreaking researchers they all have one thing in common, they have dedicated virtually their entire time to work. Looking at countries with exceptional educational outcomes broadly you see the same thi…

> biographies of groundbreaking researchers they all have one thing in common, they have dedicated virtually their entire time to work.

I'd argue that most ground breaking researchers had the benefit of researching their own ideas for prolonged periods. Putting in 40 hour a week on your own ideas for 10+ years is an awful lot of time. Many ground breaking researchers such as Feynman and Einstein had extended sabbaticals of one kind or another which lead to their best work.

It may be out of ignorance, but I'm not aware of any famous researcher who accredits their success to an 80 hour work week.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#200
In France, students and hipsters started similar protests. Horrible outcomes ever since, producing a lot of social, political and ultimately economical problems for the country for decades to come.

Having lived in France, I shiver when I hear word “union.”

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