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MIT graduate students vote to unionize

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Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#41

In the UK, most students are members of their universitys' branch of the National Union of Students.[1] The unions have a big presence on campus and a bar with heavily discounted drinks and organise a lot of the social clubs and events that happen outside of the study. They also negotiate with the university and faculty, fighting for students, and you can get individual advise and help too. Enrolling to the student u…

This is true, and they are valuable. But a students union is best thought of as a very distinct sort of organisation; they are not the same as a labour union.

(You obviously know this, but it may help prevent some misleading comparisons down the line…)

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#42

When I was a graduate student, I always thought I had a good deal, where I learn graduate degree for free, AND got a living stipend for me and my wife. The relationship between me and the university was two folded: I am a customer as a student and an employee at the same time. And I think student was my main role. And my advisor was mostly my teacher, instead of my work boss. I don't think you can turn this relations…

Most PhD “students” stop taking classes by the 2year mark (out of a five year PhD in CS, longer for other fields), and spend the rest of their time doing full-time research and teaching, without getting paid full time.

And while your advisor does not necessarily act like a boss, they have often even more power; they can withhold funding, which can stall or end your PhD, they can assign you dead-end/inconsequential projects, killing your career, etc. It does no service to anyone to not acknowledge the power differential that exists between advisors and advisees.

In general the current academic research model has positives and negatives for grad students, and it benefits no one to pretend the negatives don’t exist.

This is coming from a person who had a wonderful PhD experience and has received offers for TT positions from top universities in the US (I say this not to brag, but to ward off accusations of sour grapes)

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#43
post #39

In the UK, most students are members of their universitys' branch of the National Union of Students.[1] The unions have a big presence on campus and a bar with heavily discounted drinks and organise a lot of the social clubs and events that happen outside of the study. They also negotiate with the university and faculty, fighting for students, and you can get individual advise and help too. Enrolling to the student u…

A student's union is not the same as a labor union. The student's union represents students. This is a labor union representing graduate student-workers who are employed by MIT.

Again, The staff of the university (academics, lecturers, trainers, instructors, researchers, etc) tend to belong to The University and College Union.[2]

If they are employed by the university in the UK, they typically belong to this union.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#44

For the uninformed, what is the purpose of a student union?

When it’s used responsibly, it’s a great way to make sure union members are being treated reasonably and fairly. When not, it’s an easy way to extort your employer.

Eventually, Pournelle’s Law Iron Law of Bureaucracy takes hold and the purpose of the union is to strengthen the union regardless of the needs of its members.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#45
For anyone not familiar with the world of academia, grad students actually have a good bit more power available to them by organising sensibly than you might think. The same is also true for early career postdoctoral research staff. This is because most of the work that actually matters is being done by these individuals, in a very pyramidical structure, but the money stops rolling in without the work that the base of the pyramid is delivering.

Tenured professors and others win research grants, and are only as good as their last grant. If they stop running on the treadmill, they won't get any more grants, as their pitch becomes less compelling than others'.

They win a grant, but the actual research work is then done by postdoctoral researchers and grad students. They do the actual work, write it up, and pretty much everything else. Often they even win the grants in the first place. The exception is that when there's some credit to be gained for the work, the professor will reappear to take center stage and give interviews.

If the grad students organise, the wheels could begin to fall off quickly - if projects are delayed, grant payments won't come through. If they are not teaching classes, someone else has to teach them. If the research isn't getting done, someone has to speak with funders on calls. Someone has to write reports. There's more to be done than the professor can do, and they will rapidly end up snowed under, unable to function, and unable to deliver papers on their grant. That will make it harder for them to get their next pet project funded.

Unfortunately, many people go into academia believing it to be a bastion of meritocracy where their efforts and skill will be rewarded, and they spend some number of years believing this before they start to realise what is actually going on. Some will make it to be a professor, others become disillusioned and go elsewhere. In my view though, the model is quite broken, and too reliant on a professor claiming credit for others' work without challenge, even though the work of their (hidden) team was the meaningful intellectual input, and some of them would probably be better as the professor.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#46
post #41

In the UK, most students are members of their universitys' branch of the National Union of Students.[1] The unions have a big presence on campus and a bar with heavily discounted drinks and organise a lot of the social clubs and events that happen outside of the study. They also negotiate with the university and faculty, fighting for students, and you can get individual advise and help too. Enrolling to the student u…

This is true, and they are valuable. But a students union is best thought of as a very distinct sort of organisation; they are not the same as a labour union. (You obviously know this, but it may help prevent some misleading comparisons down the line…)

This is why I continued that people (including students) who are employed by the university are typically members of The University and College Union.

This includes "lecturers, trainers, instructors, researchers, managers, administrators, computer staff, librarians and postgraduates in universities, colleges, prisons, adult education and training organisations across the UK."

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#47

I can’t imagine this actually producing better results long-term. Unions objectives are to limit competition amongst relative parties in order to combat the higher authority/ employer. The purpose of graduate school is to put compete your peers. What this will likely lead to IMO is more “equity” among the less capable (grants, funding, etc) which will reduce the opportunity for meritocracy and more capable (while ass…

Ahh yes, less meritocracy or as I like to put it: not having to work awful hours and being paid like shit because that's just the way things have always been you don't have collective bargaining leverage.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#48

When I was a graduate student, I always thought I had a good deal, where I learn graduate degree for free, AND got a living stipend for me and my wife. The relationship between me and the university was two folded: I am a customer as a student and an employee at the same time. And I think student was my main role. And my advisor was mostly my teacher, instead of my work boss. I don't think you can turn this relations…

It's really an employee-employer relationship with on the job training. Specifically your final promotion is a certificate (Ph.D.) that has some industry wide accreditation.

The fact that they charge for tuition actually seems legally tenuous (akin to a company town) which is why I think they all have these tuition waivers for RA and TA positions.

The more I think about it, it seems like there is a bunch of legal issues. Maybe Congress has resolved those idk...

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#49

I'm very curious to see what the long term effects of unionizing will be in Academia. I'm hopeful and optimistic it will improve things in the long run. Yes there will be some unintended consequences but academic life is already very rough if you're not tenured. Academia likes to cast itself as a true meritocracy. If you work hard and publish good papers you'll do well. In practice it's more of a gerontocracy where s…

Teacher assistants or graduate assistants have been unionized at UIC [1]. I have noticed that they have gone on strike a few times. Unfortunately anything you are hopeful of achieving doesn't seem to have changed at all.

The best choice of my life was not going back to school. I think I might do it through my employer but at this point I just do machine learning as a hobby.

The problem with grad school in general is the fact that other than being a gerontocracy is that the optimal strategy for scientific research requires more failures than successes and getting tenure becomes more and more difficult because other than people living longer you don't need more professors instead you just need more TAs / GAs to teach people and educate people to get the people to keep the system working.

Right now Mathematics (specifically Calculus) makes money for a college and or university in contrast to psychology, philosophy and other humanities don't. If this was automated then Mathematics will have less and less professors and or grad students so if the current trends continue then we will probably only see computer science professors dominating universities.

[1] https://uic-geo.net/mainsite/

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#50

I can’t imagine this actually producing better results long-term. Unions objectives are to limit competition amongst relative parties in order to combat the higher authority/ employer. The purpose of graduate school is to put compete your peers. What this will likely lead to IMO is more “equity” among the less capable (grants, funding, etc) which will reduce the opportunity for meritocracy and more capable (while ass…

What nonsense. Have you actually been a PhD student recently? The peers you’re “competing” with usually aren’t even at the same institution; and even then there’s a lot more cross-institution collaboration than there is competition.

Also this view of doing research as competition is absolute garbage. Yes, competing to produce good research is good. No, advisors exploiting cheap PhD labour to do that is not good. The latter is what unions are meant to prevent.

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