MIT graduate students vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#31

Post by Bilal_io » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #29

Bilal_io wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's weird, I wish this included undergraduate students as well. But maybe there is a reason behind it that I don't understand.

Graduate students are employees of the university. There are usually other unions at universities for employees, and undergraduate students working in universities can sometimes be in those unions as well, but graduate students as employees face some unique circumstances due to their employment and as a result often form their own union. Traditionally for better or for worse, undergraduate representation comes by way…

I thought graduate students were paying customers. Now this makes much sense. Thank you.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#32

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:29 PM UTC

temp8964 wrote: post #22

When I was a graduate student, I always thought I had a good deal, where I learn graduate degree for free, AND got a living stipend for me and my wife. The relationship between me and the university was two folded: I am a customer as a student and an employee at the same time. And I think student was my main role. And my advisor was mostly my teacher, instead of my work boss. I don't think you can turn this relations…

The thing is this is great if you and your advisor get along. If your advisor decides to blackball your academic career instead there’s nothing you can do.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#33

Post by danuker » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:30 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #19

urthor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elect leadership. Who then negotiates with the faculty.

What leverage do they have? Worker's unions work because they can threaten to withhold labor. Are those students seriously going to not attend MIT? An institution as prestigious as MIT probably has no trouble finding replacements.

Same kind of thinking led to empires breaking up.

Failure to accept feedback makes for a fragile institution. Since the students decided to unionize, clearly their issues are not being heard, and a union will have a much stronger public voice than any individual student, perhaps on par with the university's brand and PR campaigns.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#34

Post by mynameishere » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

Quillbert182 wrote: post #7

For the uninformed, what is the purpose of a student union?

The purpose of a union is to make more money for their members and to handle infractions committed by their members internally. This is the purpose of almost all organizations.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#35

Post by lettergram » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

I can’t imagine this actually producing better results long-term. Unions objectives are to limit competition amongst relative parties in order to combat the higher authority/ employer.

The purpose of graduate school is to put compete your peers. What this will likely lead to IMO is more “equity” among the less capable (grants, funding, etc) which will reduce the opportunity for meritocracy and more capable (while assisting the less capable).

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#36

Post by sjg007 » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

hiptobecubic wrote: post #26

gruez wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What leverage do they have? Worker's unions work because they can threaten to withhold labor. Are those students seriously going to not attend MIT? An institution as prestigious as MIT probably has no trouble finding replacements.

"MIT fires entire graduate student body in union-busting move" is probably not a great look for them.

The would use the term "expells" because they want to say they are students and not employees.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#37

Post by toomuchtodo » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

bognition wrote: post #23

I'm very curious to see what the long term effects of unionizing will be in Academia. I'm hopeful and optimistic it will improve things in the long run. Yes there will be some unintended consequences but academic life is already very rough if you're not tenured. Academia likes to cast itself as a true meritocracy. If you work hard and publish good papers you'll do well. In practice it's more of a gerontocracy where s…

It sounds like the situation is pretty terrible already and hard for it to get worse; might as well try a union so these folks suffer less from a broken system.

Versus the alternative, “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas.”

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#38

Post by ImaCake » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

some-human wrote: post #20

In the UK, most students are members of their universitys' branch of the National Union of Students.[1] The unions have a big presence on campus and a bar with heavily discounted drinks and organise a lot of the social clubs and events that happen outside of the study. They also negotiate with the university and faculty, fighting for students, and you can get individual advise and help too. Enrolling to the student u…

We used to have the same system in Australia but it was abolished by our centre right party (Liberals). The result has been an erosion of student rights and tertiary education quality.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#39

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

some-human wrote: post #20

In the UK, most students are members of their universitys' branch of the National Union of Students.[1] The unions have a big presence on campus and a bar with heavily discounted drinks and organise a lot of the social clubs and events that happen outside of the study. They also negotiate with the university and faculty, fighting for students, and you can get individual advise and help too. Enrolling to the student u…

A student's union is not the same as a labor union. The student's union represents students.

This is a labor union representing graduate student-workers who are employed by MIT.

Re: MIT graduate students vote to unionize

#40

Post by waswaswas » Sat, Apr 09, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

Bilal_io wrote: post #31

beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graduate students are employees of the university. There are usually other unions at universities for employees, and undergraduate students working in universities can sometimes be in those unions as well, but graduate students as employees face some unique circumstances due to their employment and as a result often form their own union. Traditionally for better or for worse, undergraduate representation comes by way…

I thought graduate students were paying customers. Now this makes much sense. Thank you.

There’s a distinction in the US between fully-funded PhD graduate students (who receive a stipend contingent upon research/TA work in an employment relationship) and professional/masters students who pay tuition, even though the latter group is also referred to as graduate students.