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California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

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Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it works more quickly. That’s the only difference. And it is more like the SNRIs, like cymbalta with some effect or encouraging the release of catecholamines. But the effect is the same, more neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft. People abuse Prozac as well if that given you a clue on their similarities. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8093133/ https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.150.12....

"it works more quickly. That’s the only difference" I'd like to see a paper from a reputable journal saying that MDMA is just a quicker working version of Prozac.

OK, wait, let me call at my pharmaceutical buddies and have them do a study that shows that the New drug they wanna make billions of dollars from works just like Prozac but faster. I’ll get back to you in a minute.

The fact that people are even slightly amazed at an amphetamine will make people happier is amazing to me. Don’t you’ll realize you’re substituting Street dealers for dealers in suits?

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#202
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has spent a lot of time reading the science of these chemicals, as well as their cultural impact and the experiences of people that I know and have talked to, as well as many experiences I have read about online. I can say that this is such a bad take that it's almost funny. It's like saying that a helicopter and a blender are the same device because they both have spinning blades. These two substances…

You want to see funny? You said: > One of the main theories on the action of MDMA involves the sudden serotonin release inhibiting the amygdala and thus reducing fear response. Prozac certainly does not do this. {cough} Fluoxetine Facilitates Fear Extinction Through Amygdala Endocannabinoids https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4832021/ Chronic fluoxetine prevents fear memory generalization and enhances subse…

Have you actually talked with people who have taken these drugs? The way prozac affects people is clearly much much different from the way MDMA affects people.

Also, from your first link: "In contrast to fluoxetine, citalopram treatment did not increase BLA eCBs or facilitate extinction." And your second link: "Importantly, other SSRIs such as citalopram have shown the opposite effect, disrupting acquisition and retention of fear extinction"

Yeah...

Plus "fear extinction" is not the same as immediate fear reduction/inhibition as seen with MDMA.

I think that we as humans like to believe that we know more than what we do about these sorts of things.

Edit: Your third link talks about anxiogenic effects of fluoxetine, i.e. increases anxiety; literally the opposite of what you are arguing.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You say you are an anarchist but here you are wanting to control others. No, I used to be an anarchist. Now I'm living in an anarchic state and dealing with it pragmatically. There's nothing about individualist anarchism that says you can't attempt to moderate the behavior of other people around you, btw. >> Not everyone can handle their own problems and some peoples problems are bigger and more complicated than y…

So may be the problem is you never understood Anarchism. Because what’s happening in Portland is nothing close to Anarchism. It’s anarchy, with a small a. Now I guess you would call yourself an anarcho capitalist? Please don’t get me started…. You got greedy, that’s all that happened. It’s nothing complicated. You LARPed an anarchist when you were a kid, you traveled around, then somehow made some money, and you were…

>> housing bubble

I don't know if you know about the residential infill project, but a vast amount of zoning in Portland has now been opened up for multi-unit development (including my block). The bubble grew in large part because a lot of people moved to Portland in the last 15 years. As far as me "taking advantage" of a system, I'm not a house-flipper or a real estate speculator. I think it's fair to work and save for 25 years and buy a house without being accused of being a greedy exploitative capitalist. It's also fair to want to live in peace without constant screaming outside your window.

>> you don’t have to invade country to instigate a war.

This is like saying Chris Rock instigated getting hit. To say that the US instigated it is ludicrous. By that logic, Saddam Hussein instigated the Iraq war, didn't he? Did America also instigate Russia's invasion of Georgia, or the flattening of Grozny? Did we make Putin drop chemical weapons in Syria? I get irritated when people somehow find a way to blame America for everything as if we're the only country capable of doing something egregious, and nothing bad would ever happen in the world if America didn't exist. Speaking of small-a anarchy, that is the natural state of affairs - and there are always people who want to terrorize or enslave others. If it wasn't America starting wars, it would be someone else; and in this case, it was someone else, so not recognizing that casts doubt on the seriousness of any more nuanced argument you might make about what Putin feels drove him to attack and bomb civilians in Ukraine. In this case I think it's pure victim-blaming to say Ukraine deserved it, or America instigated it. It's tantamount to saying that Russia is fighting a just war, which is insane considering you think war is unjust.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CBT is very neurotypical-centric. Hate it. CBT by itself is inappropriately prescribed as a comprehensive treatment plan for ADHD-related insomnia when there's little evidence for its efficacy compared to CBT for other insomnias. And don't get me started on CBT and autism.

Agree! CBT is a way for the neurodivergent or the Neurodifferent to fit into a world that we had no hand in designing.

I saw a great quote on Reddit recently about psych wards being "conversion camps for the neurodivergent"! That really stood with me.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it works more quickly. That’s the only difference" I'd like to see a paper from a reputable journal saying that MDMA is just a quicker working version of Prozac.

OK, wait, let me call at my pharmaceutical buddies and have them do a study that shows that the New drug they wanna make billions of dollars from works just like Prozac but faster. I’ll get back to you in a minute. The fact that people are even slightly amazed at an amphetamine will make people happier is amazing to me. Don’t you’ll realize you’re substituting Street dealers for dealers in suits?

MDMA is not a new drug. It was used for therapy as far back as the 1980's.

It doesn't merely "make people happier", but seems to actually help people face and let go of their trauma, forgive themselves and others, feel love and trust where they couldn't before, communicate with their loved ones more effectively, and has stopped some from killing themselves.

There is a lot of evidence that it effectively treats severe, treatment-resistant PTSD -- something no other type of treatment does even remotely as well, which is why it's likely to be fully approved by the FDA soon.

To compare its effects to other amphetamines, except at the most superficial level is ridiculous, as none of them have these effects.

As for dealers, I'd be happy if dealers (the street or suit kind) sold effective medication that improves people's lives. Of course the legal providers are better because then we can be assured of their medicines' safety and purity, and we won't have people thrown in jail and being killed in turf wars over something that helps people.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#206

Just a point of clarification: pure MDMA (what is used in the study) is often very different from "E", "Ecstasy", and other street preparations. The party drug formulations are often pressed into pills and contain other things (on purpose, to give a different effect). It's often MDA, methamphetamine, cocaine, caffeine[0]. Consider this difference when comparing personal experience or anecdata about pressed pills (or…

Just to add: pill form doesn't necessarily mean it's not pure MDMA; on the other hand, powder or crystal form doesn't mean it's pure MDMA. When buying illegal substances from unknown sources, the truth is you don't know what you are taking, period.

Correct, and to add on: Test kits are perfectly legal. There are also harm-reduction organizations like DanceSafe and Zendo that will help at festivals etc.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So may be the problem is you never understood Anarchism. Because what’s happening in Portland is nothing close to Anarchism. It’s anarchy, with a small a. Now I guess you would call yourself an anarcho capitalist? Please don’t get me started…. You got greedy, that’s all that happened. It’s nothing complicated. You LARPed an anarchist when you were a kid, you traveled around, then somehow made some money, and you were…

>> housing bubble I don't know if you know about the residential infill project, but a vast amount of zoning in Portland has now been opened up for multi-unit development (including my block). The bubble grew in large part because a lot of people moved to Portland in the last 15 years. As far as me "taking advantage" of a system, I'm not a house-flipper or a real estate speculator. I think it's fair to work and save…

There is a housing bubble across the whole county, people can not be moving everywhere at once.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/30/homes/us-housing-market-bubbl...

>> you don’t have to invade country to instigate a war. This is like saying Chris Rock instigated getting hit.

I am in no way condoning the death and suffering the Putin is causing. There is no such thing as a just war.

But really? Comparing "the slap" to all the complexities going on in that region of the world? Is that how simplistic you see life? You think resources have nothing to do with the war in Ukraine? Why was the US pudding for Ukraine too enter NATO? Why is the US involved at all in a country halfway around the world? It means we have an interest there. You know who also has an interest there? Putin. Hence, war. A proxy war.

> Saddam Hussein instigated the Iraq war, didn't he?

No. That happened because the US lied that Saddam had WMDs. (You protested the war in Iraq and you really said that????)

> Did America also instigate Russia's invasion of Georgia, or the flattening of Grozny?

No, Mikheil Saakashvili instigated that when he started working as a stooge for the United States.

> Did we make Putin drop chemical weapons in Syria?

Putin did not drop chemical weapon in Syria.

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/09/29/grayzones-aaron-mate-test...

Biden was not talking about Putins wife. He is working with NATO and Oil Companies to secure resources in a world where they are becoming harder to come by. I blame them BOTH for the war. I Balme the BOTH for lying and being psychopaths. I blame the both for the suffering of the Ukrainian PEOPLE. I blame them ALL for not trying more to work for peace.

Wy have you not brought up the war against the Donbas people in Ukraine? Why have you not brought up the war against the Palestinians? Or the war agains Yemeni? Do you think the CIA does not play a role in making countries unstable? Really?

You simply the war in Ukraine because it helps you cope with a complicated world.

Can you imagine what the US would do if Russia was as involved in Mexico and Canada as much as we are in Ukraine and Georgia? OF course to you, that would be a just war.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#208
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone laye…

By that logic we should nerf everything in the world. But you miss the point. Banning psychedelics prevents their use in psychotherapy. Rolling back that ban do we can explore the possibilities is certainly sound.

That's clearly a bad argument. That's equivalent to saying that driving cars or flying planes should be available to everyone, without a driver's licence or pilot's license.

Don't strawman what I said. I didn't say psychedelics should be banned. I said that they shouldn't be sold in gas stations (aka easily available to the public).

I fail to see how that prevents prescriptions from being a viable option, or a "mdma license" similar to a driver's license that is issued only after a person proves that they can safely use it.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#209
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone laye…

This doesn’t seem to change my point. Lysol can kill you and all your children. Mouthwash can. And for something with more similarities: advil. All sold in gas stations. So, do the studies just so that we can have fine print on the side of the bottle just like everything else, and sell it alongside everything else.

Lysol doesn't directly interact with the brain's reward mechanisms, undermining rational thought processes (unless there's people out there huffing Lysol that I'm not aware of).

A car can kill you and all your children. Are you a proponent of allowing anyone to drive a car without restrictions (driver's licenses)? Slap a warning label on the steering wheel of a car "do not drive while drunk" and call it a day?

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#210
post #38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone laye…

> YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. That is because "acting like adult" is used as term of approval. It means "a theoretically ideal" behavior. It does not mean "average adult have that psychology" nor "average adult have that value".

That's like calling "getting a C- in a class so that you pass the class" or "not pissing your own pants" some sort of "theoretically ideal" behavior.

Yes, it's "ideal" in the sense that not everyone accomplishes that behavior (some people will fail a class or have bladder issues, obviously). But that doesn't mean "half the population failing Algebra I" or "half the population regularly pees their own pants" is an acceptable outcome in society.

Just because you can define "acting like an adult" as ideal rather than true in all real cases doesn't mean it shouldn't be an expectation.

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