The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk • Hacker News Board

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#311

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

relaxing wrote: post #248

pmoriarty wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the descriptions of the metaverse are the parts of Neuromancer that hold up least well" I'd be interested in reading descriptions of cyberspace that are better than Neuromancer 's. So far I haven't found any.

Depends on your criteria, I guess. As a poetic fantasy, they are superb. But it's maddening how little sense they make as a way to navigate computer networks. (Why would you visualize servers and executing code in a 3D space that you have to physically navigate, when you could just... execute a command. Gibson's genius was recognizing that real computer hacking wasn't cinematic, and making up his own system.) I still…

"As a poetic fantasy, they are superb. But it's maddening how little sense they make as a way to navigate computer networks."

Neuromancer is not supposed to be a manual on navigating real-life computer networks.

It's science fiction. Readers are expected to suspend disbelief.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#312

Post by mecha_ghidorah » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:33 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #97

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

CP2077 appears shallow on the surface. Compared to Deus Ex the gameplay feels shallow. Story wise though... I'm not sure playing as a terrorist who detonated a nuke in a city and rose from the dead to finish the job is well within the "playing it safe" area of current storytelling.

I remember seeing people complain that CP2077 wasn't punk because you could do jobs for the police and get paid for it... Which to me is actually incredibly punk in message. Sure the character might not be punk, but the suggestion that in the future we will have people basically getting hit jobs from the cops via an app like they were uber drivers is incredibly dystopian and punk in message to me

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#313

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:34 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #180

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The film "Heavy Metal" from 1981 also had some of this aesthetic. So did the magazine counterpart (still in print!)

You know, I feel silly admitting this, but I still haven't ever watched "Heavy Metal". Now I'm thinking I should make that my top TODO item after work tonight. That's been on "the list" for, like, forever.

The Josan Gonzalez “Deathburger” images on the article could be lifted directly the Heavy Metal movie. And Gonzalez did artwork for the Heavy Metal magazine.

When Musk launched a Tesla into space, there was a lot of speculation that he was inspired by the opening scene in the Heavy Metal film [0] [1].

This film was Ivan Reitman before he did Ghostbusters and same year he did Stripes, and became really famous. A film like this could never be made today; there are way too many unpolitically correct scenes. Just don't bother with "Heavy Metal 2000", the 2nd film that came out 20 years later -- it was not good at all and had no involvement from the original creators as I understand.

[0] https://www.scalemodelnews.com/2018/02/did-heavy-metal-inspi...

[1] https://bleedingcool.com/movies/spacex-elon-musk-use-falcon-...

More great art from Josan Gonzalez: https://www.heavymetal.com/tag/josan-gonzalez/

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#314

Post by Jon_Lowtek » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:34 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #211

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name three japanese mega corporations with significance in the story of neuromancer

Ono-sendai, Mitsubishi-Genentech, and Hosaka.

ok, those exist, but none of them have significance.

There is a point that in the 80s much electronic tech came from Japan and that both Ono-Sendai and Hosaka are named as top of the line cyberdeck manufacturerers, but that is pretty much it, they have no relevant part in the story. I think people are trying to forcefully over-fit that 80s japan craze they read about in an attempt to seem like sophisticated literary critics. Maybe i can't see it because i am not american and my national pride isn't being triggered by jokes like "Mitsubishi Bank of America" and by the idea that globalism may not mean hegemony of the USA. Major roles in Neuromancer are given to companies like Sense/Net, Maas Biolabs, Tessier-Ashpool and the Eastern Seaboard Fission Authority, yet people cling to side notes about hardware brands because they are offended with the first chapter playing a Chiba City Blues instead of some New York City Jazz.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#315

Post by bpiche » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:36 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #37

jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

I read it again recently and I found it still pretty interesting. From a SF aficionado point of view, Neuromancer world has: -An economy that rely on ubiquitous computer networks. -Colonization of low orbit. -An AI rebelling and doing its own thing. -Digital downloads of personalities. In 1984.. I mean, OK, the concepts already existed, but it really break with most of the SF that was being done until then. It's the…

Have you seen Elysium? It's basically Neuromancer: The Movie, starring Matt Damon.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#316

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:41 PM UTC

bpiche wrote: post #274

nimithryn wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writing is beautiful, but I think Neuromancer has failed to capture a modern audience due to some of the stylistic choices Gibson makes (I’m not necessarily arguing they are bad decisions - I personally enjoyed the style - although I think one could argue that). For instance, Gibson frequently skips exposition, and he delivers the narrative with a disconnected, stream-of-consciousness feel that is meant to evoke…

I have to disagree, Snow Crash is interminably long, like most of Stephenson's books. Neuromancer's whole Ocean's 11 Straylight run job is a very clean story. edit: A lot of Gibson's stream of consciousness writing style can be attributed to the effect of beat writers like Burroughs on him. It's unique but it's also an intentional stylistic decision. Not really an attempt to capture the aesthetics of logging into the…

The Peripheral is even more spare. I didn't struggle with his other books, but the minimalism started getting a little too much there.

It allows him to disguise a literal plot device, which is a nice twist. But overall I thought it was heavy going compared to the Neuromancer trilogy.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#317

Post by arrakis2021 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:44 PM UTC

I love both Snow Crash and Neuromancer. I recall someone saying that Neal is a great hacker but not a great writer - but that Gibson is a great writer / but not a great hacker.

I guess the comparison isn’t perfect but I get what it means. Snow crash made more technical sense but reads like a disaster. Neuromancer reads like a dopamine drip but misses the mark on some of the tech.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#318

Post by blacksmith_tb » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #159

ineedasername wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the aesthetic, whether Gibson likes it or not, is interesting & compelling enough to stand on its own, outside of any specific or inherent social commentary. Though I agree that as an environment for stories its no longer well suited to commentary on society today. Some of what he envisioned has become mundane parts of everyday life, in some form or another. Others never much materialized. For the former, wel…

Strongly recommend the Laundry files. Note that they start rougher (hewing very close to the original concept of "grumpy sysadmin in weird circumenstances") but quickly mature into more.

Pretty sure Mr. Stross is a regular around here. I personally couldn't warm up too much to his Laundry or Merchant Princes books, but Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise are excellent, and Accelrando was also fun.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#319

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:46 PM UTC

staindk wrote: post #256

pmoriarty wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neuromancer was groundbreaking in its time. I read it when it came out in 1984 and it blew me away. These days so much other media has been influenced by it that it doesn't look nearly as original. But just imagine reading it when there were no books or movies about: - cyberspace inhabited by AIs - neural interfaces - corporate armies - insanely rich people living in Earth orbit - genetically engineered assassins wit…

I'm quite a bit younger than you, and not entirely clued up on cyberpunk and related genres, but I'd think "Blade Runner" (1982) and its source novel "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" (1968) brought many of the same/similar ideas to the fore a while earlier. Neuromancer still sounds ground-breaking and I hope to read it one day. As an aside - something interesting I just found was Gibson's thoughts on Blade Runn…

Blade Runner was fantastic and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep was ok, but they had neither neural interfaces nor cyberspace (nor the entities dwelling within it), which were pretty central to Neuromancer.

Neuromancer was influenced by both Blade Runner and DADoES, but it's not like it was a ripoff of either, neither in themes, nor characters, nor dialogue, nor plot. It was mostly influenced by these in style.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#320

Post by urthor » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #306

nimithryn wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writing is beautiful, but I think Neuromancer has failed to capture a modern audience due to some of the stylistic choices Gibson makes (I’m not necessarily arguing they are bad decisions - I personally enjoyed the style - although I think one could argue that). For instance, Gibson frequently skips exposition, and he delivers the narrative with a disconnected, stream-of-consciousness feel that is meant to evoke…

I found Snow Crash to be really childish, and not even in the same league as Neuromancer . I read Neuromancer originally in 1984 and again a few years ago, and for me it still holds up. It's not the greatest book or anything, and I found Count Zero to be much better, but apart from those two books I've yet to read anything else cyberpunkish that comes even remotely close. Before someone mentions Greg Egan or Vernor V…

Snow Crash is childish, that's why it's more successful.

Snow Crash is built around an airport novel style narrative.

Neuromancer has a far more literary tone, and is trickier to digest.

That's the entire reason Snow Crash is cited. Airport novel readership is far more widespread.