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One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

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Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#301

Post by verisimi »

krapp wrote: post #235
verisimi wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that not effectively censorship? Do you remember when Trump was banned from Twitter?!?

It is not effectively censorship. Censorship is not effective if it merely makes communication slightly less convenient. >Do you remember when Trump was banned from Twitter?!? Yes, and he deserved it. And yet everything Donald Trump says and does still gets national press coverage, and he's starting his own social media platform with a backlog of millions of followers. It's garbage, but that isn't censorship's fault.…

> We should all wish to be so censored.

Good god.

Do you ever think you're part of the problem? Should we censor people who have a different opinion?

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#302

Post by verisimi »

ajross wrote: post #245
verisimi wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, yes. If major platforms de-platform you, in a co-ordinated fashion that's not censorship? This is all works on account of corporate policies - not law. Law would dictate that unless what was said was illegal, that a person had a right to say it. Which is supportive of the fact that we are living in a fascist (corporate + governance) system. That the legal system is now a joke.

> If major platforms de-platform you, in a co-ordinated fashion that's not censorship? Not in a world where you can continue to post on Infowars or 4chan or reddit or HN or wherever instead, no. Why would it be? You really don't see the difference? In Russia, it is illegal to report on international perspectives about events in Ukraine. That content doesn't exist, and you can't link to it without committing a crime (…

I don't think you are taking my point.

Yes, you can have a website and your own voice. But if you are being excluded from public platforms - not because you are doing anything illegal, but because a majority or even just the owner doesn't like your opinion - this is a genuine problem. You will live in an echo chamber.

These are legal issues and there is legal framework already in existence to prevent illegal acts. Shops cannot refuse service to the public. But an online public platform - eg Twitter - is able to refuse. The ability to refer to a terms of service document that can justify stopping your usage of a public platform when a person has done nothing wrong, should not be legal. That you can be silenced can interpreted as a political act, eg Trump. You might agree with the political slant (but then how would you even hear about alternative views?).

I really don't get how you can think or argue that voices are not being censored in the public domain.

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#303

Post by FormerBandmate »

d0mine wrote: post #231
yywwbbn wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the alternative be if US banned all independent media sources (like Russia did)?

unrelated: could you name one just one US media source that you consider to be independent (with an anti-war article where US is perpetrator).

The Intercept, the Grey Zone, and a bunch of other American media sources literally take the opposite position of the government every time

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#304

Post by kasey_junk »

startoffs wrote: post #287
yywwbbn wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the alternative be if US banned all independent media sources (like Russia did)?

US has done it's fair share of banning . Trump even tried to ban TikTok.

What media sources has the US banned?

Trump tried and failed to ban TikTok is exactly the difference being discussed.

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#305

Post by NoOn3 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #39

This is very sad. Obviously, it would be valuable if someone could suddenly change TikTok so that it thinks all Russians are Ukrainians. Such information warfare is vastly less violent than missiles and probably much cheaper to implement. The sooner the Russian population knows what their leadership is really accomplishing, the better for the world.

Maybe I'll get a lot of downvotes. I just write my opinion, maybe I'm wrong. It's clearly a certain number of people in Ukraine sympathize Russia. Yes it seems that more sympathize The West in the latest times, but this is not much of an overwhelming majority. From that majority has some small group of nationalist. And there are detailed recordings of their bloody crimes. Maybe sometimes Russian media exaggerates it, but you can't say that was no crimes. Western countries have never condemned any of these crimes. The Us could give just one guaranty to not accept Ukraine(maybe even for some time) in NATO to prevent war. And western media have many confirmed fakes too. And Zelensky not very different from dictatorship from the point of view of a simple person. He was banned many tv media and parties in Ukraine. It is difficult to clearly value the actions of the rulers. We don't have so much information that they have on their level. Government does not consist of one person. Sometimes what we think is dictatorship is necessary to save the country. In Crimea for example most people really prefer Russia and speak russian. Minsk agreements could be least damaging to people on both sides. But if they were not fulfilled, How else could this issue be resolved? It's very very complicated situation... It's only my humble opinion. I may be wrong.

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#306

Post by NoOn3 »

bogwog wrote: post #192
tormeh wrote: post #147

Hm... Pretty solid argument in favor of federated/decentralized protocols, this. Is there anything out there that doesn't suck? Not for chat. We've got Matrix and chat is usually not censored anyway.

How well would a federated social network hold up to an attack from a government like Russia? Either to flood it with propaganda, or simply to bring it down?

Therefore, in part they do not become popular, goverments simply do not allow them to do this.

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#307

Post by renw0rp »

cabirum wrote: post #170
alex-ant wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently Russia doesn't have a singe reliable news source. We all have seen the pro-Russian narrative - there's no war, we're not murdering the civilians, all Ukrainians are nazis developing bioweapons targeting "slav DNA" and to be delivered across the border by birds, etc. Those are not news. Needless to say that this propaganda also targets people in other countries with large ethnical Russian population, specifi…

However "unreliable" these news sources are, they present a different opinion that is being censored. And since there are just two sides in this war, you can only see just one side of a story.

Russians doing what they have been doing for a hundred years: lying, blaming, spreading clearly false propaganda, stealing, murdering and raping people.

Meanwhile people in the west, or at least outside of the conflict zone, discussing about free speech.

Nothing has changed.

You can be proud of yourself and your principles.

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#308

Post by beebmam »

bduerst wrote: post #150
aaaaaaaaata wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tool of the Chinese government, and secondary tool of other governments because they want to remain dominant to push their own agenda(s).

TikTok doesn't even exist in China. The parent Bytedance does, and their Chinese equivalent is Taiotao. Even the TikTok data servers exist in South Korea. This is an important distinction because there has been zero proof that TikTok is spying or is a tool for China, despite clickbait articles, memes, and accusations existing. This is the first time TikTok is being used observed to be used for government political ce…

If a company refuses to open source its software that it operates as a service, you should assume the absolute worst. The burden of proof is on the companies, to prove to us that they aren't spying or using their software as a tool for a government to spy. This applies to all services, including cloud providers.

It's the same with governments. Non-transparent governments which do not make its reports and internal statements public should be assumed to be committing massive crimes. It's up to them to prove to us that they aren't.

Why should I trust an organization that hides reality from me to not abuse its power?

Re: One App – Two Worlds: This Is TikTok in Russia and Ukraine

#310

Post by krapp »

verisimi wrote: post #301
krapp wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not effectively censorship. Censorship is not effective if it merely makes communication slightly less convenient. >Do you remember when Trump was banned from Twitter?!? Yes, and he deserved it. And yet everything Donald Trump says and does still gets national press coverage, and he's starting his own social media platform with a backlog of millions of followers. It's garbage, but that isn't censorship's fault.…

> We should all wish to be so censored. Good god. Do you ever think you're part of the problem? Should we censor people who have a different opinion?

Being banned from Twitter isn't censorship. Donald Trump wasn't "censored" for having a different opinion. Nor was Donald Trump "censored" in any way that actually interfered with or hindered his ability to communicate.

People really should stop picking Trump as an example of a martyr to the cause of free speech, he's a really bad one. I know they want the narrative to be that "cancel culture" was just so powerful that it silenced a sitting President but it's just not working out that way.

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