Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

sabukaru.online

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 404 posts

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#221

Post by notahacker »

the_af wrote: post #191
notahacker wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. For example here[1] is an interview in which Gibson waxes lyrical about pop culture, imagery, prose style and selective use of detail, and also says he didn't "have the patience" to flesh out details like the backstory of what was supposed to actually have happened to the US because they'd only detract from the reading enjoyment. He's saying that he was influenced by how cheesy Cold War era blockbusters could i…

Well, like I answered in another comment, Blade Runner is not a good example because Neuromancer wasn't published by then, and also because it was a groundbreaking visual work of art, not a derivative one (yes, I'm aware of Metropolis . The point still stands.) > "[...] a determination to avoid what Gibson sees as right wing tendencies in Golden Age SF" That was no small feat. It seems pretty major to me. It took me…

I haven't said anything about Blade Runner. I reference Gibson claiming inspiration from the line "you flew the Gullwing over Leningrad, didn't you?" in Escape from New York because he loved how 'a casual reference could imply a lot', which is all about his admiration for the style of SF (and trope-heavy style at that).

> What are modern cyberpunk derivatives fighting against? Cyberpunk today is codified as a consumer-friendly, eye-popping style, complete with a collection of tropes so ingrained fans will fight you to the death if you try to deviate so much as an inch from them.

But eye-popping style was all it ever was. Neuromancer didn't fight against John Campbell's opinions on slavery, or capitalism, or Cold War politics, it just wrote about punks and hacking in a neo-noir dystopia because Gibson thought that was a much less boring setting for a story than conservative utopias.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#222

Post by EricE »

telchior wrote: post #219
ineedasername wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the aesthetic, whether Gibson likes it or not, is interesting & compelling enough to stand on its own, outside of any specific or inherent social commentary. Though I agree that as an environment for stories its no longer well suited to commentary on society today. Some of what he envisioned has become mundane parts of everyday life, in some form or another. Others never much materialized. For the former, wel…

You're right on in your first sentence. Aesthetics trump message when art reaches wide popularity. ... I swear that I used the word "trump" above unintentionally, but my example for this is Trump rallies using music from bands like Rage Against the Machine, Neil Young and R.E.M. The music contains messages that explicitly speak against the type of political power being wielded, and! the artists themselves speak up ab…

lol - if you think Trump was part of the political establishment you clearly weren't paying attention!

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#223

Post by lobocinza »

npteljes wrote: post #208
the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

>I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. He specifically said this about the game: "The trailer for Cyberpunk 2077 strikes me as GTA skinned-over with a generic 80s retro-future, but hey, that's just me." https://twitter.com/GreatDismal/status/1005958197654351872

Then someone criticized him (on Twitter) for not understanding cyberpunk. :)

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#224

Post by mwigdahl »

Keyframe wrote: post #174
nurbl wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having not managed to finish a Stephenson book since "Snow Crash" (which I liked) i may not be in the best position to recommend something to you, but I really like Greg Egan. Truly idea-driven SF which also has interesting enough characters and story. I also like that his books are pretty short, even his trilogy is probably shorter than any single Stephenson book. Very little "fluff".

Anything in particular you'd recommend? First time I hear about the guy.

_Diaspora_ and _Permutation City_ are both excellent. If you don't want to commit to a full novel, his short story collections are all fantastic as well.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#225

Post by lobocinza »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #21
the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

Cyberpunk 2077 is very much a disappointment in every sense other than the scope of the project. Every single aspect of it is a cheap, shallow rip-off. It adds nothing of value to anything, though enjoyable in the way Mortal Combat is. Still, Mortal Combat was far more ground-breaking and original - that about sums up how much of a "derivative work" Cyberpunk 2077 is.

It's easy to criticize but fun to play.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#226

Post by EricE »

cubano wrote: post #100
drBonkers wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism's greatest superpower is absorbing all critique and selling it back to consumers as a luxury good.

Not bad, but I personally think its superpower is always being just the tiniest bit better than everything else...

Funny, that!

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#227

Post by brazzy »

pydry wrote: post #127
the_af wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

>Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. "The Nazis are evil" is also an overused trope and is hardly radical but by reusing it it helps protect us on a civilizational level from actual nazis. Tropes can be sort of like cultural T cells. I'd rather see more "nazis are bad" and cyb…

> "The Nazis are evil" is also an overused trope and is hardly radical but by reusing it it helps protect us on a civilizational level from actual nazis.

...or helps a dictator dehumanize the population of a country he wants to conquer for propaganda purposes.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#228

Post by BlueTemplar »

obese44 wrote: post #85
drBonkers wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism's greatest superpower is absorbing all critique and selling it back to consumers as a luxury good.

very insightful, that is 100% your original quote

Mark Fisher :

"Capitalism is very much like the Thing in John Carpenter’s film of the same name: a monstrous, infinitely plastic entity, capable of metabolizing and absorbing anything with which it comes into contact. Capital, Deleuze and Guattari say, is a 'motley painting of everything that ever was'."

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#229

Post by the_af »

notahacker wrote: post #221
the_af wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, like I answered in another comment, Blade Runner is not a good example because Neuromancer wasn't published by then, and also because it was a groundbreaking visual work of art, not a derivative one (yes, I'm aware of Metropolis . The point still stands.) > "[...] a determination to avoid what Gibson sees as right wing tendencies in Golden Age SF" That was no small feat. It seems pretty major to me. It took me…

I haven't said anything about Blade Runner. I reference Gibson claiming inspiration from the line "you flew the Gullwing over Leningrad, didn't you?" in Escape from New York because he loved how 'a casual reference could imply a lot', which is all about his admiration for the style of SF (and trope-heavy style at that). > What are modern cyberpunk derivatives fighting against? Cyberpunk today is codified as a consume…

Well, the comment you were replying to with a "this" did mention Blade Runner.

> "[Gibson] just wrote about punks and hacking in a neo-noir dystopia because Gibson thought that was a much less boring setting for a story than conservative utopias."

You are not wrong, but I'd argue that it had a meaningful message beyond plain aesthetics when placed in the right context, i.e. when Neuromancer and cyberpunk were born. Now it's just the aesthetic, and the "message" of hi-tech lowlives and evil megacorporations is a lazy one, just rehashing mindlessly what was before. I'm not saying nothing interesting and new can be said about this, but that it has become a codified trope you can write on autopilot.

It's easy to say it was always like this, but it's false. Yes, Gibson drew from pop culture, and he used it to create something new, for whatever reasons. Now it's just rehashing for the sake of rehashing, and some of the tropes are hilariously outdated but still copied by the faithful.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#230

Post by munk-a »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #183
dleslie wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk 2077 receives too much grief for its rejection of the mainstream state of affairs, making it quite punk. IMHO. The crux of the story, the full arc and conclusion of your character, is that you are a nobody who seeks to become an influencer, comes to believe that you have a big role to play in world events, but ultimately even your greatest possible achievements amount to being either inconsequential or the…

Sorry to gatekeep but corporate produced anything cannot be punk. At most, they can serve as a rent seeker for passing along punk to the masses but that's not even what Cyberpunk 2077 is. This is 100% corporate, focus grouped, committee approved, beige trying too hard to be punk. Which is fine if taken for what it really is but what it really is, which isn't punk.

Calling something corporate is far too vague for any sort of meaningful qualification. Neuromancer was published by Ace a subsidiary of Penguin - thus making it the product of the corporate machine.

I will whole hardily agree that corporations manage to water down a lot of interesting things to drive mass market appeal but building something interesting within a corporation doesn't negate its message. We live in a world where 90%[1] of genuine political discussion happens hosted by either Google, Facebook or Reddit - those are our forums for discussion in the modern world.

I'd also just briefly disagree with litmus testing and gatekeeping as generally useful concepts - in almost all the cases they're applied they're used to try and reduce a complex spectrum discussion into a binary choice (aka capital punishment, weed legalization, abortion legality) and they add nothing of value - merely providing an easier tool to help clump a wide discussion into the theming of Us vs. Them.

1. I have no facts for this but I think it's a reasonable ballpark.

Post reply on HN