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Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

theintercept.com

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Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#371

Post by jamincan »

ericd wrote: post #344
Firmwarrior wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

Better than unions would just be increasing labor scarcity at the low end of skills. Protectionism in the form of a carbon tax with border adjustment would help quite a bit, I think.

If my country (Canada) is anything to go by, instead of allowing market forces to increase low wages, they just change the rules to temporarily import workers instead.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-ottawa-loos...

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#372

Post by ohgodplsno »

sefrost wrote: post #215
Firmwarrior wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

> I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us I agree, in fact I would argue the total opposite. Has any industry/skill group in history put so much effort in to getting more people involved than the software industry has?

Miserable attempts at getting a bunch of POC to participate in a majorly male dominated industry to get a sign-on bonus is barely effort. The very fact that unionization is a bad word in much of the software industry is proof of how selfish most of us are.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#373

Post by 0des »

tgv wrote: post #333
0des wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop giving them money ostensibly by not using sites on their platforms, get your friends to do the same. Greed must be fed otherwise it is just idle hunger.

I don't give "them" money. I don't buy there, but that doesn't solve the problem. Governments (all over the world) need to protect worker's rights, consumer right's and the environment much better through legislation and supervision, as in good, old-fashioned social democracy.

My point was stop supporting things hosted on AWS. It sounds impossible because it is.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#374

Post by ohgodplsno »

chii wrote: post #184
grapeskin wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers can skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. The people slaving for 50 cents over minimum wage and still being unable to pay rent don’t have much of a choice.

> skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. they are ethical, or altruistic, but certainly can't claim they are financially responsible. If they don't have dependents (now or in the future), then they can remain financially irresponsible, because it will have little effect. But if they plan on having dependents such as children, they will need the…

>certainly can't claim they are financially responsible.

My man, with 180k you can comfortably afford a house by the time you're 30, have a quick million aside _and_ do lines a cocaine off a hooker's ass every week. 180k is a salary way past the bar of "fiscal responsibility".

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#375

Post by faddypaddy34 »

sokoloff wrote: post #298
kennywinker wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just jr devs that should be acting in solidarity with warehouse workers. Their team leads, IT, project managers, etc. I don’t care how much amazon stock you’re getting as part of your comp, until the capital gains on your stock outpaces your salary you’re closer to a warehouse worker than you are to an owner - and your allegiances should be with your coworkers, not jeff. So yeah, this specific case might hav…

Ok. Preventing a coworker from calling another a “slut”, “motherfucker”, “fag”, or “n####r” seems like a pretty reasonable feature for a workplace chat system. Lacking such a system might even constitute creating or contributing to a hostile workplace environment. What’s the level of dev who should show allegiance to fellow coworkers by refusing to implement that? Then some non-dev employee realizes you can block the…

It sounds reasonable and that is why it's dangerous to censor and everyone should fight against any censorship. If the guy working next to you is the type to send you slurs via messenger on company time wouldn't you want to know that so you could take the messages to management and have them removed? Or you would you want him to have a new imagined grievance on top of his already hateful viewpoint?

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#376

Post by jamincan »

kqr wrote: post #343
tikwidd wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have to get from "unions are bad" to "union discussion should be censored".

Censored is not technically the right word, though. You don't directly get thrown in jail for discussing union stuff.

censorship ≠ incarceration

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#377

Post by bigDinosaur »

toyg wrote: post #370
bigDinosaur wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arendt was very specific though, her book was called Eichmann in Jerusalem. It wasn't 'mid-level German bureaucrat in Jerusalem'. After all, the railway workers (well, the unforced ones, since the Nazis did not have any compunction about slavery) who kept the trains running were fairly banal participants in the Holocaust, but we don't focus on them as the architects of it for a reason. Eichmann had every reason to pr…

Of course, Arendt was a journalist so her work starts from an event. Not every Nazi member was trialled, Eichmann wad just one of the high-profile ones. The point is that from the particular situation we get a more generalised theory of the development of "evil" at the mass level, that works better than "people just like to abuse others, because the devil or something".

The problem really comes down to this: is Nazism something which we are all capable of quickly becoming, i.e. inherent to human nature, or do we only become this horrible when small groups of intelligent elites cynically exploit our psychology and concretely plan for us to become brainwashed slaves (the opposite of banality)? Perhaps a bit of both, but at some point someone definitely isn't a banal and clueless bureaucrat.

You can probably see how option A is a propaganda win for Nazism (and fascism in general). 'See, you're not so different to us!'. Was it the German people who became Nazis overnight, or did the Nazi elites (such as Eichmann) instigate what amounted to major social engineering campaigns?

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#378

Post by homo_ergaster »

grapeskin wrote: post #157
uncomputation wrote: post #49

> The major goal of the program, Amazon’s head of worldwide consumer business, Dave Clark, said, was to reduce employee attrition by fostering happiness among workers — and also productivity. Shout-Outs would be part of a gamified rewards system in which employees are awarded virtual stars and badges for activities that “add direct business value,” documents state. At the meeting, Clark remarked that “some people are…

The scariest thing isn't that Amazon is a company worth nearly trillions and using that money to oppress workers to maintain their lead. It's that tech workers are happily applying to get a decent paycheck and crushing people under them, just to protect the company's billions. Then they'll post online about how happy they are to have been smart enough to save up to buy a lakefront home and retire at 45, and say peopl…

> The lame social media posts from fellow tech workers about how things "should" be regulated gets tiresome. The real solution is to simply not work for them.

If you’re calling something a “real solution” it should have at least some chance of actually happening and solving the problem. Strong regulation from the government against union busting is both possible and effective (look at what FDR did if you want an example). Wishing individuals would live up to your standards of ethical behavior when they have no reason to (and may have personal/family reasons that make them feel they need the paycheck) will not ever change anything.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#379

Post by [deleted] »

sokoloff wrote: post #298
kennywinker wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just jr devs that should be acting in solidarity with warehouse workers. Their team leads, IT, project managers, etc. I don’t care how much amazon stock you’re getting as part of your comp, until the capital gains on your stock outpaces your salary you’re closer to a warehouse worker than you are to an owner - and your allegiances should be with your coworkers, not jeff. So yeah, this specific case might hav…

Ok. Preventing a coworker from calling another a “slut”, “motherfucker”, “fag”, or “n####r” seems like a pretty reasonable feature for a workplace chat system. Lacking such a system might even constitute creating or contributing to a hostile workplace environment. What’s the level of dev who should show allegiance to fellow coworkers by refusing to implement that? Then some non-dev employee realizes you can block the…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#380

Post by ljm »

josephg wrote: post #230
matthias509 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High salaries for tech workers are not a new phenomenon. So if programming were truly a skill a large number of people could just “pick up”, it would have happened already.

Yep. Programming is really hard. The idea that anyone can "learn to code" is a work of fiction. Nobody says that anyone can learn to do surgery, become a fighter pilot or become a barrister. I couldn't do those jobs. And lots of people couldn't do my job. Telling people that effort is the only thing stopping them getting a 6 figure software engineering salary does real harm. Its notable that most people who say this…

If you work outside of the US you'd probably need to spend a decade or more to hit a six-figure salary; you certainly won't walk into it right off the bat as a junior developer. It will likely still be pretty well-paid compared to alternatives, but the expectations have to be managed and your options might be a bit more limited until you can look for senior positions.
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