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Exit interviews are a trap

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Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#381

Post by refurb »

gotaquestion wrote: post #277
bradlys wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alone. If you don’t play the game - you’re not playing the game everyone else is and you will always lose in the end. Extremely painful to deal with for bright eyed young folks or those switching industries thinking things might be different.

I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?

It’s basically “its not what the truth is, it’s what people believe”.

It extends beyond the workplace into politics as well. Hell, anywhere humans interact.

So you might write the best code, be the best at developing others, most productive. But none of that matters, what matters is what people believe.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#382

Post by brailsafe »

Ancalagon wrote: post #348
brailsafe wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this amount to doxxing though? Naming someone or a company in a public forum is one thing, posting their home address and phone number is different

what if that person has a particularly identifiable name? It wouldnt be hard to guess who it was in that case by searching for their name on LinkedIn, noting their geographic history, and guessing at which (tech or otherwise) companies the manager has worked at. What's more, a common name might mean multiple people get harassed via that same method due to poor detective skills.

Well then... don't harass people. Saying "My manager Brad really fucked me and the team over with his self-serving decision-making, putting me in a really bad spot which ended up costing me my job, and then negatively influenced my subsequent job search by bulshitting about me to his friends" seems pretty reasonable.

I'm not in the business of calling people out to shame them, but I sure as hell would like to know who sucks at managing at specific companies so I don't accidentally work for them.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#383

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

What is the consensus on what % of the population has sufficiently low anxiety/neurosis to tolerate well-meaning, constructive feedback ?

And what % of that population makes up startup payrolls?

I want to say with only public info + anecdata, that narcissistic etc types get attracted to startups in general (at least to leadership roles ) which makes the feedback loop particularly tough, as the culture of "criticize at your peril" permeates all the way down.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#384

Post by argc »

aroundtown wrote: post #99

I made the mistake and told the truth one time early in my career. I got fired, err... I wasn't retained after a multi-month temp period, and was brought in to be fired, then exit interviewed. I was upset, but stuck to the truth. My direct boss was passive aggressive, didn't like me, and excluded me from the team. His code was awful, in the long term wasn't maintainable, and wouldn't be able to meet the needs of the…

I think you have to try to avoid the situations you described, but I think 99% of the time, bad mouthing someone who is toxic is not going to have these far-reaching negative effects. I have done it in many exit interviews and its never bitten me. I obviously do not ask for references from terrible managers who I bad-mouth in exit interviews, rather I ask for references from strong leaders who I can honestly speak glowingly about and who I develop close relationships with. I think you shouldn't be afraid to speak the truth in most cases and if you've developed a reputation as a good employee who others like to work with, many times the information you provide will be taken seriously. It probably won't be acted upon unless others report the same thing, but I still find it worthwhile. It at least gives them the opportunity to do the right thing.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#385

Post by honkdaddy »

gotaquestion wrote: post #277
bradlys wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alone. If you don’t play the game - you’re not playing the game everyone else is and you will always lose in the end. Extremely painful to deal with for bright eyed young folks or those switching industries thinking things might be different.

I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?

To put it simply, The Game is acknowledging that every single other person you encounter in your workplace is just an individual agent with their own motivations and agenda.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#386

Post by throw1230 »

hluska wrote: post #365
throw1230 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made a judgment about the event with what I have read. I have no intention to bully anyone. My point is clear, we are only reading one side of the story and I don't see an iota of maturity in the story he described. Therefore I also don't believe that his manager called everyone in the town to tell them not to hire him. We don't even know the feedback was sent out to his manager. Maybe the other employers figure…

And again, this isn’t a trial and aroundtown doesn’t have to share all their evidence. Why not just take it as an anecdote and leave it? You’ve repeated this theme enough now that it sure seems like bullying. Would you just let it go?

I'm not even talking to him, most of my replies are to others who asked me a question or challenged what I said.

They don't have to share anything at all, but I'm free to talk about the parts I've read.

Even if all my judgment is correct, that doesn't mean anything. We all did hot-headed stuff, fucked around and found out.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#387

Post by nopenopenopeno »

iratewizard wrote: post #331
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If however, you have this kind of attitude of blame-shifting and finger pointing" They asked him whether anything is wrong, they don't get to complain about the answer. On the other hand, for a senior person to go around town and spread rumours about a (presumably) junior team member is exactly the kind of behaviour I want nothing to do with. This comment is miopic, seems the closer you are to the top the less matur…

I once fired a Jr dev who lied about having done work and was generally being a salary thief. When I told him, he said he would work for free, it would never happen again, it was a misunderstanding and pleaded for his job. I told him no, so he went into the office crying to beg the founder for his job. If someone were to ask me about hiring him, I would say in no uncertain terms that it's a mistake. I wonder, though,…

Nobody is a villain here. This is the system we all live under together. Until that changes, we are stuck with it.

That said, what is profit if not stolen value?

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#389

Post by elzbardico »

bsnnkv wrote: post #146
aroundtown wrote: post #99

I made the mistake and told the truth one time early in my career. I got fired, err... I wasn't retained after a multi-month temp period, and was brought in to be fired, then exit interviewed. I was upset, but stuck to the truth. My direct boss was passive aggressive, didn't like me, and excluded me from the team. His code was awful, in the long term wasn't maintainable, and wouldn't be able to meet the needs of the…

I feel like people like this are fair game for naming and shaming.

No. Use this energy in the next elections to make sure you get to elect representatives that create at least a modicum of decent federal legislation to protect workers against such things, and more importantly, to make it financially feasible for workers to sue when their rights are infringed.
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