At my last job, I used the interview (with HR, not my manager) to do something I didn't have the power to do before: Call out my bad manager! When HR found out what had transpired, they were horrified. Later on I found out that my manager got into some hot water over the ordeal. Good. Whatever needed to happen to make things easier on the next person. I didn't have anything personal against the manager, but one can only be isolated and put on Ignore for so long.
Exit interviews are a trap
291–300 of 431 posts
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
> a cathartic experience If you need catharsis after leaving a job, call up your old college roommate or your parents to bellyache. Nothing you say is confidential. There's a good chance the notes will go directly to your old manager and/or manager's manager, with your name on it. Be bland and non-committal, and if you are really pressed, give the mildest criticism like "I wish the ticketing system was easier to use"…
> Nothing you say is confidential. There's a good chance the notes will go directly to your old manager and/or manager's manager, with your name on it. At the big corporation I work at, we have yearly surveys. We also do exit interviews with people who are leaving. You're right the notes usually go directly to the person's supervisor. Then the upper management guys put together some kind of directive to try and impro…
One more reason to not say anything. It will likely have no real effect.
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why should I care? I say things during an exit interview I want them to know. Because you can't predict the future with 100% fidelity. Which means you could find yourself in situations like: - working under the same person (that you pissed off via the exit interview) again at a different company - applying for a job at another company where that person (that you pissed off via the exit interview) now works and will b…
How about another scenario: you later find yourself working under the same person, who you made like you by giving them useful feedback in your exit interview. Or you later find yourself working with one of your ex-coworkers again, who saw one of their major pain-points at that previous job go away because of your exit interview. I think the assumption that the only possible result of being honest in your exit interv…
How about another scenario: you later find yourself working under the same person, who you made like you by giving them useful feedback in your exit interview. Or you later find yourself working with one of your ex-coworkers again, who saw one of their major pain-points at that previous job go away because of your exit interview.
Sure, those things could happen. But those of us arguing against being overly honest in exit interviews would generally say, based on our experiences, those things are just very unlikely. Personally I find them so unlikely as to be in the "not even worth considering" category. Kinda like, yes, I could be killed by a meteorite smashing through my roof and striking me, but I don't spend any time worrying about the possibility.
Is this the same confusion where assholes claim that they're just "brutally honest" making people think that being honest in your exit interview requires you to be a jerk?
I don't know anything about being "brutally" honest, nor am I suggesting that one must be a jerk about anything. But many (most?) people don't suffer criticism well in my experience - and this seems to be especially true of the people who are most worthy of being criticized.
Like others have said... the idea isn't to be intentionally deceitful during an exit interview. At least that's not what I'm suggesting. But it's also not necessary to say everything you could say, or even you might want to say. Especially since the biggest gain is often just a momentary sense of catharsis.
That said, everybody has to judge their own circumstances and make decision based on their own values, goals, constraints, etc. "Do what you think is right, and hope for the best" isn't the worst strategy one could follow.
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#294On exit interviews:
Companies that want me to give them information that would be useful to their business can pay me my consultation rate.
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#295How about you stop strategizing and just say what you want to say?
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#296I have no idea what the author is on about. The exit interview is often the best 30 minutes of a bad job! You can tell them what they are doing well, what they aren't doing well, praise good employees and criticize bad managers. If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. But if…
> If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. It seems to me that the author is suggesting a third type of person: one who is professional until they're criticized.
> It seems to me that the author is suggesting a third type of person: one who is professional until they're criticized.
Or to rephrase, one who is professional until an actual test of their professionalism.
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?
I feel like I’ve been at more companies than you and I started in 2013. The fuck. The game is about presenting an image that doesn’t actually exist. It’s about not acknowledging your manager is a toxic piece of shit and your company is completely broken and will likely be bankrupt in a few years while execs milk every ounce from it. It’s about faking positivity and that you’re so excited to join the company because i…
The game still exists in companies that build physical products, but I've found it's not quite as bad there. You're right, SV is the king of lying, along with any publicly traded company.
My experience is small privately held businesses that offer physical product are the most pragmatic and 'honest.' The closer you are to the source of income, the less everything but the money matters. I like being only 1-2 steps from the money, because it means no one gives a flying fuck about anything other than the almighty dollar at all costs. At least that's a game I understand. More than 2 levels from the source of money and you're shit-deep into authoritarian politics land, where the name of the game is to buy social capital in the authoritarian structure of a corporation, with little direct ties and influence on the source of corporate persuasion (income).
That is, when you're too far from the source of money, such as middle management or lower in a large corporation, your only real way to gain power is to become the most cunning psychopath rather than maximize profit. As an engineer, I've 'engineered' my personal solution by only taking jobs where I report directly to CEO/CTO/President so that politics dissolve into "make money or die." I much prefer it that way.
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#298Large companies as a matter of policy will refuse to provide references. All they will do is confirm Names and Dates of Employment (not even titles).
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nothing that passes through HR is anonymous. Ever.
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND, EVER. Ive been in orgs where HR was literally sleeping with head of sales, and had me fix phones with dickpics and BJ vids and etc btwn employees... uh HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. Do not confide in them, especially anything personal. Also, if you have an IOS device - log into your apple account and confirm the devices tied to it.. HR will (in many SV orgs) attempt to add a device to your apple accou…
Should 100% demand a work supplied device for work. Or at worst buy a cheap second Android to use as a work device. There is no circumstance where using your main personal device for work is a good idea.
Re: Exit interviews are a trap
#300I've always just been straight with my employers whenever it hasn't worked out and I've decided to move elsewhere. That's not to say that there isn't a need for finesse.
I actually ended up going back to one employer after a year or so, when it turned out that they recognised that my criticisms (primarily focused on unfeasible expectations w.r.t. work-life balance and pressure on teams to deliver) were valid and took major action to flip things around. Whether they recognised the validity of my criticisms because of what I said, or simply because of more people leaving, I cannot say. I don't remember any conspicuous absences of familiar faces when I returned, so I like to think that I was actually heard.
As with any form of diplomacy, there is an art to the delivery. If you're going in with criticism, do so with well-reasoned argument and reference to something provable or better yet numerically presentable, and point out how the criticisms negatively impact them as a business, rather than simply saying that you didn't like [x] or wouldn't have to do [y] at competitor company [A].
And for heaven's sake don't make it personal -- I mean, this isn't something I've done, but it seems pretty basic that getting personal is a no-no.
For example, if you're moving for a better salary, highlight the fact that they're lagging behind in industry sector [P], and as a result you won't be the only one leaving. If they want to retain talent, they must reimburse the talent competitively.
Contrary to the beliefs of some, managers are people, but they don't always think like people -- they're effectively paid to not think like people, but rather to think like a business, to embody the needs of the business.
As a result, human considerations can take a back seat, they can be reluctant to react to change especially where it involves spending money, and they can ignore facts because they haven't been the subject of a pie chart. Explain something the right way, however, and you can affect positive change.**
As others from the UK have said, references are immaterial. I've never had anyone check my references, and I know this because when I got started in software dev 10 years ago, my references were entirely fictional.
** sometimes