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Exit interviews are a trap

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Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#281

Post by mmcnl »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #35
legitster wrote: post #26

I have no idea what the author is on about. The exit interview is often the best 30 minutes of a bad job! You can tell them what they are doing well, what they aren't doing well, praise good employees and criticize bad managers. If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. But if…

> If you are both professionals, it's a cathartic experience that supports your remaining coworkers. If they are not professional, they weren't going to give you a good reference anyway. It seems to me that the author is suggesting a third type of person: one who is professional until they're criticized.

Then you are not a professional.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#282

Post by plorkyeran »

mindcrime wrote: post #220
legitster wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a good chance the notes will go directly to your old manager and/or manager's manager, with your name on it. Why should I care? I say things during an exit interview I want them to know.

Why should I care? I say things during an exit interview I want them to know. Because you can't predict the future with 100% fidelity. Which means you could find yourself in situations like: - working under the same person (that you pissed off via the exit interview) again at a different company - applying for a job at another company where that person (that you pissed off via the exit interview) now works and will b…

How about another scenario: you later find yourself working under the same person, who you made like you by giving them useful feedback in your exit interview. Or you later find yourself working with one of your ex-coworkers again, who saw one of their major pain-points at that previous job go away because of your exit interview.

I think the assumption that the only possible result of being honest in your exit interview is that everyone who becomes aware of what you said dislikes you are a result is weird. Is this the same confusion where assholes claim that they're just "brutally honest" making people think that being honest in your exit interview requires you to be a jerk?

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#283

Post by legitster »

kbenson wrote: post #245
legitster wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you notice you are the only one in 200 people have any issues, a reasonable question to ask yourself is if the problem is you. This is exactly the right attitude. If everyone else is happy and the only problem is you, all the more reason to be respectful! It's better to treat it as a cultural misfit rather than ask them risk making 200 other employees unhappy to appease you.

In the absence of larger issues, maybe. What if you're one of very few minorities or women working at the company, and the issues seems to stem from issues that shouldn't be issues? That seems more like a company problem and not a personal or cultural problem (given that the culture in question has laws to try to prevent it). I agree it's probably best to start from a position that it's just a cultural mismatch. I im…

I think even in those situations, telling them that you never felt like you fit is still the right approach. I there is actual wrongdoing, report them. But if it's a boy's club, it's probably better to phrase it as such than point to each individual actor as sexist.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#284

Post by mobjack »

khazhoux wrote: post #173
ghusto wrote: post #112

Good lord, what terrible advice. If anyone is reading this and thinking of adopting his ideas, please consider (with the exception being if you're still early in your career): 1) Being true to yourself is worth more than any of his purported wins 2) Be your own merit, and don't rely on others for references or goodwill 3) If every exit interviewee states that the CEO is a dick, that can't be ignored. She won't lose h…

I feel like author actually considered all your points, but regardless arrives at the same conclusion: The expected value of an exit interview -for you, the individual- is near-zero or possibly negative. At the point of your exit interview, you're done with the company. You're no longer part of the team, you're no longer in the family. Your advice and feedback is that of someone who decided to jump ship. I suppose if…

That is short term cynical thinking.

Being able to give honest and constructive feedback is a skill that will grow your career more in the long run.

An exit interview is one of the safest times to practice that

I am not expecting anything to change, but I am going to do my best to make an impact as I leave for the benefit of the business and my coworkers.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#285

Post by notch656a »

gotaquestion wrote: post #277
bradlys wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alone. If you don’t play the game - you’re not playing the game everyone else is and you will always lose in the end. Extremely painful to deal with for bright eyed young folks or those switching industries thinking things might be different.

I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?

The game is to make those around you look good. Results may be a way to achieve that, but they are subordinate to making your boss and contacts look and feel good.

The 'game' is that what works at the free-market business level (maximize profit) doesn't work at the authoritarian non-free-market employee level (i.e. you win by making those with social capital look good and winning this social capital).

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#286

Post by tempnow987 »

zerkten wrote: post #221
tempnow987 wrote: post #104

As someone who has done exit interviews on both sides some quick notes: 1) I would dial back dramatic sweeping criticism. Now is not the time to relitigate every grievance, claim doom will befall company etc. 2) Treat it as any other feedback cycle. Here's what was working well, here some areas I might look at improving. Keep it light and friendly. 3) Do a slight "I" perspective. I'm moving for higher pay and to have…

I think this is good advice. I treat these interviews as an opportunity to keep a door to return to the company in different circumstances. When you look at folks working in FAANG (or other cohorts of big companies), there is quite a bit of movement back and forth over time. It might not seem like it, but HR records can still be hanging around when you interview in a different department a couple of years later. They…

For sure. I'm not sure if it's 100% allowed, but you will see folks marked as no-rehire or do not allow back.

Sometimes these are the blaze of glory you are all idiots exits :)

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#287

Post by ectopod »

mejarc wrote: post #249
cpeterso wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you objectively (not subjectively) determine if a manager is bad? If 200 people in the organization are "happy enough", it's your word versus theirs on what a good manager vs a bad manager is. HR should track the attrition rate for each manager. If twice as many of manager X's reports are quitting or transfer to other teams than manager Y's reports, then manager X or the projects they manage might be a probl…

I was invited to answer one of these, at a company with truly the most hateful manager I've ever had. Oh, was I ever ready to offer my jaundiced, embittered opinion...until the survey required I log in with my company email address. Yes, there was the usual verbiage about anonymizing, blah, blah, but I lost all confidence that my response wouldn't be tracked to me. I never returned the survey. I still haven't determi…

There was a post on here years ago from somebody who sold software to corporations for "anonymous" employee surveys. He said that executives always wanted to deanonymise the results and, sadly, he was happy to oblige.

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#288

Post by fleddr »

bradlys wrote: post #265
fleddr wrote: post #233

You should definitely go to an exit interview. In the case of a sour breakup, you should 100% lie. Just say it was great but you were in need for a change. Don't dramatize the lying part because you lied to get in and the employer lied about how great their company is. Work is a lie, play the game. In the case of a drama-free breakup, when pressed for feedback and the room being receptive of it, do share your thought…

> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alone. If you don’t play the game - you’re not playing the game everyone else is and you will always lose in the end. Extremely painful to deal with for bright eyed young folks or those switching industries thinking things might be different.

Here's my old man manual to life at work.

Show up and do the work, consistently. Just this basic discipline puts you in the top 20% of performers, everywhere.

Make your superiors look good and in any case, not bad. They don't care what you do for as long as you do this. This does not require sucking up, just deliver.

Be reliable. Deliver on promises, likewise do not commit to a promise you can't fulfill and explain why. When you mess up, admit it and fix it.

Avoid politics, divisions, conflicts that put you in a camp. You have no opinion, or a very boring neutral one. Rather than share more than you know, share less than you know. Don't smear colleagues, even if they deserve it.

Do all of the above humbly and silently. It will get noticed. You'll be perceived a solid no-nonsense drama free worker that gets shit done. You don't even need to ask for opportunities because they will find their way to you.

Because you get things done.

To me living an honest life is feeding my family which I'll always do or I'll die trying. I refuse to do work that harms society, but other than that I'll gladly tell whoever in the office anything they want to hear if "that's how it works".

Re: Exit interviews are a trap

#289

Post by bradlys »

gotaquestion wrote: post #277
bradlys wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work is a lie, play the game. If there’s any advice I could ever give anyone who has any amount of integrity and tries to live an honest life - it’s this alone. If you don’t play the game - you’re not playing the game everyone else is and you will always lose in the end. Extremely painful to deal with for bright eyed young folks or those switching industries thinking things might be different.

I'm not sure I understand what "the game" is, and I'm in my mid-50's. I don't know whether I'm so good at the game I don't know I'm playing it--because nothing bad has happened--or, I'm not playing it at all--and nothing bad has happened. And I've been in this since the late 80's, through IBM, Microsoft, and Intel, not to mention two startups and contracting. Can you elaborate what The Game actually is?

I feel like I’ve been at more companies than you and I started in 2013. The fuck.

The game is about presenting an image that doesn’t actually exist. It’s about not acknowledging your manager is a toxic piece of shit and your company is completely broken and will likely be bankrupt in a few years while execs milk every ounce from it. It’s about faking positivity and that you’re so excited to join the company because it’s so amazing and definitely not because your previous employer is horrible. It’s about lying about past accomplishments because everyone does this in interviews so you need to stand out and seem just as good or better.

It’s about knowing that the other side is doing this too and you’re not the only one lying. You get lied to during interviews, you get lied to during onboarding, you get lied to during 1:1s, you get lied to during performance reviews, and you get lied to when leaving the company. You get lied to about why you’re building the product you are. You get lied to about why we chose an architecture. You get lied to about why you didn’t get something but someone else did. (But better - you don’t ask. You play the game. You lie about knowing)

It’s about acknowledging that work involved a heavy amount of lying from all sides and being honest - while noble - will not get you far in this industry. Especially in SV where lying is king. Where lying is renamed as “aspirational” speaking. Etc.

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