Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#371

Post by jmyeet » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #282

ethbr0 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the son of a son of a father who wouldn't have gone to college without WWII-era tuition assistance, can confirm it changes entire family trajectories. My grandfather had the work ethic and intelligence in him, subsequently proven, but was born dirt poor with a snowball's chance in hell he could have afforded college without the GI Bill. The military is an option which largely accepts you if you say "Yes" and can p…

It's rare that survivorship bias gets to be used quite so literally. Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died. The military as a class on-ramp disproportionately harms the poor, and ethically that's wrong. It's almost literally a lottery where you're gambling your life in exchange for basic needs.

> Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died.

What are you referring to here? 300,000 is a specific number and you qualify it with "because their loved ones died". Let's assume you're talking about active military deaths, which are less than 100,000 since 1945 [1], the vast majority of which is Vietnam and Korea.

Up until the Vietnam War, the draft was a significant factor. That's not really a factor because you have no control over it.

You'll also note that my comment was specifically about the Air Force Guard and Reserve. Your chances of getting deployed to a war zone and dying are incredibly low and so many roles aren't active combat anyway. Unlike active service you enlist ofr a particular job. If you sign up to do logistics in Ohio. your risks are pretty low.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt...

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#372

Post by nradov » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #282

ethbr0 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the son of a son of a father who wouldn't have gone to college without WWII-era tuition assistance, can confirm it changes entire family trajectories. My grandfather had the work ethic and intelligence in him, subsequently proven, but was born dirt poor with a snowball's chance in hell he could have afforded college without the GI Bill. The military is an option which largely accepts you if you say "Yes" and can p…

It's rare that survivorship bias gets to be used quite so literally. Nearly 300,000 families also had their trajectories changed because their loved ones died. The military as a class on-ramp disproportionately harms the poor, and ethically that's wrong. It's almost literally a lottery where you're gambling your life in exchange for basic needs.

The military mostly recruits from the middle class now. Unfortunately, poor people often can't meet the eligibility requirements due to medical problems (especially obesity), poor fitness, criminal record, history of drug use, lack of a high school diploma, or low test scores. Of course there are exceptions but relatively few. The modern military is pretty selective in whom they take.

Many years ago my uncle got in minor trouble with the law as a young man. The judge gave him a choice: join the Navy or go to jail. The Navy worked out pretty well for him, but today he probably wouldn't even have that option to get his life back on track.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#373

Post by formvoltron » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #366

oneoff786 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I’ve grown up starkly anti military due to the kinds of fights the American military has fought in my lifetime. It’s been evil. Plain and simple. And yet, I’m glad we have a strong military given happenings in Ukraine. I would strongly support putting boots on the ground. To have the training necessary to join the volunteer defense forces in Ukraine or something similar resonates as a valuable, important skill.…

Putting American military boots on the ground in Ukraine would likely escalate to WW3.

So says Putin. So you better give him what he wants.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#374

Post by YATA1 » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

relaxing wrote: post #361

YATA1 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Enlisted recruits in 2006 and 2007 came primarily from middle-class and upper-middle-class backgrounds. Low-income neighborhoods were underrepresented among enlisted troops, while middle-class and high-income neighborhoods were overrepresented." [0] "Military recruits mirror the U.S. population and are solidly middle class. A recent report shows that more recruits come from middle-income families, with far fewer dra…

And the military is far more likely to be enlisted, so the effect is going to be minor. Also that report seems to only consider ROTC and West Point Cadets, and I’d bet both are wealthier on average than the officer corps as a whole.

>And the military is far more likely to be enlisted, so the effect is going to be minor.

Immaterial. You're announcing to the world that you don't understand what "per capita" and "underrepresented" means.

>Also that report seems to only consider ROTC and West Point Cadets, and I’d bet both are wealthier on average than the officer corps as a whole.

No it doesn't. It specifically talks about enlistment. Of course officers are going to be from upper classes, a four year degree is a requirement.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#375

Post by cscurmudgeon » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #258

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. The US spends a lot on public education. A lot of it is inefficient due to highly politicized unions and top-level admins that pilfer the money out from benefitting ground level teachers and students. https://www.manhattan-institute.org/issues-2020-us-public-sc... > 1. Thanks to decades of increases, America spends more per student than any other major developed nation. U.S. per-pupil expenditures have nearly…

People are talking about post-secondary education here. You are quoting primary and secondary. Your numbers do not apply.

1. False.

2. Even then, my point stands. US is #2 in post secondary education (#1 is the tiny state of Luxembourg). US spends more than twice the OECD average.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

(See Figure 2)

You are welcome!

These are easily verifiable numbers.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#376

Post by sennight » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

scruple wrote: post #347

sennight wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was well deserved in my experience. Toward the end of my deployment, statistically the most dangerous period due to complacency setting in, we had to take over an AO that the Army had given to reservists for a year. They'd been reporting for months that all was quite, so we were looking forward to an uneventful weeklong left-seat/right-seat transition. They no joke met us going the other way as our convoy moved in…

In fairness, I can really only speak to the first couple of years of OIF. I separated in January of 2006. My larger point would be that the function of reservists and National Guardsmen changed dramatically with OEF/OIF, that the mobilization in reserve and guard forces was unprecedented over the last 20 years.

heh, this was in 2005. But I agree with you about the role of the reserve being changed, though I'd characterize it as less "changed" and more "abused". My contract ended soon after yours... er, my active duty contract - they don't really make it clear during the recruiting process that there is a commitment to four more years of "inactive reserve" involved. I got involuntarily recalled twice, didn't bother re-enrolling in college after the second retread - and gave up trying to get reimbursed for the GI Bill failing to handle a problem of the DoD's own making.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#377

Post by formvoltron » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:35 PM UTC

throwaway743 wrote: post #363

simonh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it does. Was Afghanistan better off before the pull out, or now under the Taliban? Iraq is a mess, sure, but at least nobody is gassing whole cities and we can be immensely proud of the liberation of Kuwait although that was more than 20 years ago. Right now we are providing vital military assistance to Ukraine, and I wish we were doing a lot, lot more. The failures were political ones. Militarily the army did th…

So it's okay that the US military is used as the world police? Neither the war in Afghanistan nor Iraq were justified. Not to mention Saddam was an ally of the US for some time. US even gave Iraq the chemical precursors for their chemical weapons program. Yes, what's happening in Ukraine is awful, but by this logic, why has the US been supporting the Saudi Arabian regime in its war on Yemen? Why isn't the US providin…

Putin understands how you think, and it's part of his plan.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#378

Post by nradov » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #314

dogman144 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that wrong-ness the responsibility of the military, or that of our govt/"society" not bothering to offer anything else as capable?

It's the responsibility of the government and by extension, the military. I suppose you could blame society at-large because we elect our representatives, but the majority of Americans already support single-payer healthcare and free or reduced college tuition. It's disturbing to me that it's normal to concentrate efforts on recruiting poor teenagers to fight wars. The focus on the poor also has the effect of disprop…

Americans may claim that they support healthcare or education reform in the abstract, but they don't actually vote that way. Most people aren't willing to voluntarily pay higher taxes or cut other programs in order to actually implement those policies.

I'd like the government to give me all sorts of stuff for free as long as someone else is paying.

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#379

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

sputknick wrote: post #8

I spent five years in the Air Force. Posts like this are really helpful, a lot of Americans are disconnected from members of the military, especially in the upper classes where people do not need to serve, or in fields (like tech) where people can often find less intrusive ways to pay for college. My favorite part of the article is dispelling the myth that in the military senior people bark orders, and don't ask for…

> a lot of Americans are disconnected from members of the military, especially in the upper classes where people do not need to serve, or in fields (like tech) where people can often find less intrusive ways to pay for college.

I think that's a serious problem. Americans have little idea how the US military works and tend to form extreme opinions, either glorifying it or villifying it - the former especially in the last 20 years or so but neither is at all healthy. When people understood the military - when we had a draft and a wide spectrum was personally familiar with it - we had popular entertainment like Gomer Pyle and MASH, and expressions like FUBAR and SNAFU. The military was seen as an enormous, absurd, powerful bureaucracy; people understood its limits and capabilities, and could make decisions about using it. Warfare was not glorified so much, but seen as the scourge it is, the last option, because many actually had experience of it. They also had skin in the game during a war, risking being drafted and knowing people who were. Now we fight the 20 year GWOT, send people on one tour after another, and many outside don't even realize there's a war on or wonder how it's going - but they do say 'thank you for your service' endlessly (a young relative in ROTC (US undergrad trainee program) was thanked several times wearing their uniform around town!).

Part of the problem is the narrow population from which the military recruits. In the US Army, 79% of recruits come from families which already have service members. [0] Consider that only a few percent of the population is in the military. Also, I read that the military does not recruit in - or puts very little effort into - major cities (though I can't find the cite now, and it was a few years ago). [EDIT: cite found: 1]

[0] https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/03/about-face-army-ex...

[1] From 2019: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/us/army-recruiting-tech-i...

Re: Why I'm in the Army Reserve – an explainer for my friends in tech

#380

Post by mcguire » Mon, Apr 04, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #131

The most important thing to realize about military service is that you sign away all your citizenship rights (free speech, etc.) when you sign up for the service. Hopefully you won't be used in ridiculous debacles like the 2003 Iraq Invasion, based on lies about WMDs pushed by Washington (and see British role as well), but you'll have no say in the matter. The other thing to realize is that, at least in the USA, they…

https://www.military.com/education/gi-bill/new-post-911-gi-b...

"The GI Bill can pay up to the full resident tuition at any public school, if you are qualified to receive benefits at the 100% rate based on your active service shown above. If you are attending a private or foreign school, the VA will pay you an annual maximum of $26,042.81, that amount increases to $26,381.37 on Aug. 1, 2022."