L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional • Hacker News Board

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#201

Post by AussieWog93 » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 5:34 AM UTC

car_analogy wrote: post #183

AussieWog93 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Jewish whites, that are only ~4% of all whites, have a minuscule effect on white SAT scores On average, yes. At the Ivy League level, though, they account for a solid third of the white admissions. I'm sure you'd find a similar overrepresentation in the top few percentiles of the SAT.

> I'm sure you'd find a similar overrepresentation in the top few percentiles of the SAT. Even supposing this is true, it still doesn't answer the question: Since non-Jewish whites do better at the SAT than Blacks and Hispanics, why does this translate to lower , not higher, Ivy enrollment rates? The data clearly shows: higher SAT scores help every group except non-Jewish whites.

I get the general point about the affirmative action, but it's important to remember that it's not just Whites getting the short end of the stick. Asians are absolutely underrepresented too.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#202

Post by cuteboy19 » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 7:18 AM UTC

truffdog wrote: post #87

Animats wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I anecdotally recall studies that found organizations with greater diversity deliver better financial results Seems to not make much difference in financial results, either way. Wharton study:[1] [1] https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/will-gender-dive...

There's a little bit of a systemic epistemic bias around this- diversity is socially desirable, so positive results are more likely to get published, get into the media, get shared, get remembered.

I wonder what would happen if we found out that people of similar backgrounds work better together? The reasoning of increasing shareholders value would still apply. Would we start implementing de facto segregated workplaces?

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#203

Post by edanm » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 7:51 AM UTC

Ourgon wrote: post #111

88913527 wrote: post #2

This seems like the right decision (and I'm saying this as an LGBT person). The problem is, it just doesn't seem like legislation is the right instrument for promoting diversity in boardrooms. But what is the right mechanism? I anecdotally recall studies that found organizations with greater diversity deliver better financial results, and that public companies have a responsibility to their shareholders. It's importa…

> and I'm saying this as an LGBT person I' m left-handed but I would never think of identifying myself as being part of some diffuse group of people 'united' by handedness. In the same vein I do not see why gays, lesbians and bisexuals are to be seen as part of a single group given that as far as I gather there is often not that much love [no pun intended] between the former two - it is not as if gays and lesbians ha…

There's a difference between what one wishes the world was like, and what one should do given the world as it actually is.

Given the past rampant anti-LGBT feelings and actions around the world, it totally made sense for LGBT people to band together, to enact change on their own behalf.

Much of the world is better for LGBT people today, but a) it's still not quite as good as most would want it, and b) in many parts of the world, it's still quite bad.

So given that everyone else treats LGBT as a group, and that everyone else treats them badly, then of course it makes sense for them to act as a group. (Though of course I don't literally mean that everyone treats them badly, just the general trend)

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#204

Post by avazhi » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 8:10 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #110

avazhi wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Not to get into the social or mental aspects, but biologically there is some very non standard stuff that can happen. Chimera for example can be a mix between male and female cells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans That isn’t to say non standard biology is always involved, just that it can be.

Look, I agree that it's biological - I'm not claiming, for example, that people who claim to have 'gender dysphoria' are lying. No doubt there are both men and women who don't feel right in their own bodies. But I draw the line there. I think surgeries and hormone treatments, particularly in children, are abhorrent and that we as a societal are enabling mental illness and self-mutilation. One interesting thing I never see anybody talk about is that perhaps (and I'd suggest this is the case) the reason suicide rates amongst trannies is so high is literally that they are mentally ill/fucked up to begin with. The data show that having the treatments don't actually help the outcomes - ie., if you're miserable as a natural born male, you're likely to be miserable after you undergo genital mutilation and hormone therapy.

Point is - no doubt there's something biologically and cognitively going on with these people (I'd frame it as there being something wrong with them, in the same sense that eating disorders are maladaptive and harmful).

Longwinded way of saying I agree with you.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#205

Post by aaaar » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:01 AM UTC

avazhi wrote: post #204

Retric wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to get into the social or mental aspects, but biologically there is some very non standard stuff that can happen. Chimera for example can be a mix between male and female cells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans That isn’t to say non standard biology is always involved, just that it can be.

Look, I agree that it's biological - I'm not claiming, for example, that people who claim to have 'gender dysphoria' are lying. No doubt there are both men and women who don't feel right in their own bodies. But I draw the line there. I think surgeries and hormone treatments, particularly in children, are abhorrent and that we as a societal are enabling mental illness and self-mutilation. One interesting thing I neve…

You'll get flagged into oblivion here for pointing this out and holding sensible, do-no-harm type opinions on this topic. Seems that HN has a sizeable contingent of 'trans rights' activists who want to hide such blasphemy from public view.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#206

Post by Retric » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:05 AM UTC

avazhi wrote: post #204

Retric wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to get into the social or mental aspects, but biologically there is some very non standard stuff that can happen. Chimera for example can be a mix between male and female cells. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans That isn’t to say non standard biology is always involved, just that it can be.

Look, I agree that it's biological - I'm not claiming, for example, that people who claim to have 'gender dysphoria' are lying. No doubt there are both men and women who don't feel right in their own bodies. But I draw the line there. I think surgeries and hormone treatments, particularly in children, are abhorrent and that we as a societal are enabling mental illness and self-mutilation. One interesting thing I neve…

So after reading that I went to check the literature and it seems to on average be a net benefit. Complications and regret are both possible, but various objective and subjective measurements do improve on average.

Ex: https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Coverage/DeterminationProcess/D...

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#207

Post by avazhi » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:51 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #206

avazhi wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I agree that it's biological - I'm not claiming, for example, that people who claim to have 'gender dysphoria' are lying. No doubt there are both men and women who don't feel right in their own bodies. But I draw the line there. I think surgeries and hormone treatments, particularly in children, are abhorrent and that we as a societal are enabling mental illness and self-mutilation. One interesting thing I neve…

So after reading that I went to check the literature and it seems to on average be a net benefit. Complications and regret are both possible, but various objective and subjective measurements do improve on average. Ex: https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Coverage/DeterminationProcess/D...

Just because their subjective well-being improves doesn't mean the problem is solved, and you'll see that even after 'treatment' they are still much more likely to commit suicide or suffer from depression compared to the general population. My personal hunch is that, again, these people have a mental illness, but we as a society have framed it in the way that if they just get surgery we can fix their dysphoria - when they get the treatments and then they are just as unhappy, or only slightly happier than they were before, this is sort of the end as they see it. This would also explain why so many of them kill themselves after they have treatment.

Also, though I'm trained as a lawyer, I also have a BsC with an interest in endocrinology and I'd suggest that nothing in the human body besides the brain is more complicated than one's hormones and their interactions inter se. I'm a big believer in modern medicine, but I do think we have too high an opinion of ourselves as a species when it comes to our ability to control outcomes vis-a-vis a person's hormones.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#208

Post by avazhi » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 9:52 AM UTC

aaaar wrote: post #205

avazhi wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I agree that it's biological - I'm not claiming, for example, that people who claim to have 'gender dysphoria' are lying. No doubt there are both men and women who don't feel right in their own bodies. But I draw the line there. I think surgeries and hormone treatments, particularly in children, are abhorrent and that we as a societal are enabling mental illness and self-mutilation. One interesting thing I neve…

You'll get flagged into oblivion here for pointing this out and holding sensible, do-no-harm type opinions on this topic. Seems that HN has a sizeable contingent of 'trans rights' activists who want to hide such blasphemy from public view.

I've actually been surprised at how constructive the various responses have been. Not sure what other sites you visit regularly, but this is the least draconian site I can think of outside the dark web.

I should also add: the trans-rights thing is actually something that in my experience most people, even those who are otherwise socially 'liberal', generally find disagreeable. I've got gay friends and feminist friends who both get just as outraged as I do at the idea that men should be able to waltz into female bathrooms, or compete in women's sports, etc. My own view is that this is actually something that the large majority of the population thinks a certain way about, but as usual in this day and age a very small minority of people dedicate their existence to 'activism' and cause the movement to seem larger than it is.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#209

Post by Ourgon » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 11:53 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #203

Ourgon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I'm saying this as an LGBT person I' m left-handed but I would never think of identifying myself as being part of some diffuse group of people 'united' by handedness. In the same vein I do not see why gays, lesbians and bisexuals are to be seen as part of a single group given that as far as I gather there is often not that much love [no pun intended] between the former two - it is not as if gays and lesbians ha…

There's a difference between what one wishes the world was like, and what one should do given the world as it actually is. Given the past rampant anti-LGBT feelings and actions around the world, it totally made sense for LGBT people to band together, to enact change on their own behalf. Much of the world is better for LGBT people today, but a) it's still not quite as good as most would want it, and b) in many parts o…

> So given that everyone else treats LGBT as a group, and that everyone else treats them badly

Simply put: Nonsense

A bit more elaborate: some people have something against people who differ in some way, whether that be in their sexual orientation or handedness or skin colour or the language they speak or the food they eat or the god(s) they worship or the parties they vote for or the places they live or the clothes they wear. This has always been that way and will always be so. Most people harbour some preconceived ideas about those 'others' - yes, you do as well. In most liberal western societies these preconceived ideas are frowned upon by official institutions, especially when it concerns such ideas related to 'protected' identity categories like sexual orientation, race and religion. your statement regarding the supposed mistreatment of that group does not hold any water. It is a lie, an untruth, a distortion of the facts - unless you can prove your claim.

Can you prove it? Show us how your statement is true, in what way everyone treats gays, lesbians and bisexuals badly. Just saying this does not make it true, not even repeating it ad nauseam, not even when it is claimed to be true by academics from the grievance studies departments - especially not when claimed by those academics from those grievance studies departments since they are on an ideological mission.

Re: L.A. judge rules LGBT corporate diversity law unconstitutional

#210

Post by aaaar » Sun, Apr 03, 2022, 11:58 AM UTC

avazhi wrote: post #208

aaaar wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get flagged into oblivion here for pointing this out and holding sensible, do-no-harm type opinions on this topic. Seems that HN has a sizeable contingent of 'trans rights' activists who want to hide such blasphemy from public view.

I've actually been surprised at how constructive the various responses have been. Not sure what other sites you visit regularly, but this is the least draconian site I can think of outside the dark web. I should also add: the trans-rights thing is actually something that in my experience most people, even those who are otherwise socially 'liberal', generally find disagreeable. I've got gay friends and feminist friend…

From experience, I've also found the discussion here to often be constructive, but tends to be cut short by being flagged to death. For example, I see that your top comment already has been - which also stops the discussion below it from being visible to anyone who has 'showdead' set to the default.

> My own view is that this is actually something that the large majority of the population thinks a certain way about, but as usual in this day and age a very small minority of people dedicate their existence to 'activism' and cause the movement to seem larger than it is.

Agreed, but also that most people up until recently haven't really thought much about it at all. That the activism of this small minority is drawing more attention and scrutiny of late is probably a good thing in the long run, given all the harmful downstream effects of gender identity ideology, particularly on women and children.

I think this image post, from a radical feminist forum, makes this point well (with examples): https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/67892/listen-to-tims