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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#631

Post by Epa095 »

zouhair wrote: post #490
nessguy wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of unions more than the reality. My first job was earning minimum wage working full-time at Safeway. After working there for about 9 months I quit because I didn't want to pay union dues to join the union. I was already only making minimum wage, it wasn't like the union was improving my salary. The required hour long lunch breaks might have been thanks to the union, but I hated having to take hour lon…

You cannot have optional and union in the same sentence, that defeats the purpose of a union. What you are saying is I want the union to do all the work without me being hands on on its function. Unions are useless if the workers just sit idle and wait for the representatives to do all the work. Participation of all workers is what make a union powerful.

In Northern Europe we put optional and union in the same sentence, and it works well. But there is social pressure to join, and many places everyone, or almost everyone is union members. And maybe more importantly, the unions are usually big enough that they have power even if not everyone are members.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#632

Post by kelnos »

imwillofficial wrote: post #493
jorblumesea wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "if we're claiming to be the party of the working class, shouldn't we be in favor of this?" But they don't really mean it and have never meant it. The Republican party, at least in modern history, has never been pro working class in any real sense. The opposite in fact, probably far more hostile to working class than Democrats. Much of the "pro working class" rhetoric is largely just conservative values like aborti…

“ But they don't really mean it and have never meant it.” Ah reading millions of minds I see.

I think there's a difference here, one that I didn't see immediately either.

No one in this subthread is talking about the millions of Republican voters out there. The people being talked about is the much smaller group of people who set Republican policy. And we don't need to read their minds; we can look at their policy platform and directly witness what they support.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#633

Post by ahevia »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #398
rootusrootus wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea of the republican working class party has always been more of a clever rhetorical strategy than a reality. I tend to agree, but then again I really don't grok the Trump thing, and I can't claim that I saw it coming or sticking around as long as it has. At this point I would not be terribly shocked to see a bit of role reversal between the two major parties.

I've been a conservative since I had a minimum wage job, for one reason: I want the government out of my life as much as possible. I firmly believe nobody will care about my family as much as I do and I don't want the government's golden handcuffs. Leave me alone, let me work, and I'll happily live with whatever happens. I think this is the fundamental disconnect in left-right (economic) politics. The left, as I see…

I recently moved from a conservative state to a liberal one. The government at the former was far more controlling then my new home. I’ve never understood this argument. Conservatives are just as invested in intervening in our lives. See recent legislation limiting medical access, voting rights, environmental protections in the Southeastern US.

In my new home. I have better access to medical care, the outdoors are better funded, voting is simple and easy.

Both parties want control over the populace. The idea one party is advocating for more “liberty” is a reductive way of viewing politics

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#634

Post by ahevia »

LoveGracePeace wrote: post #577
jdmichal wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my early 20's, I would have agreed 100% with your stance. But, you know what really gives people freedom and liberty? The freedom to fail without worrying about how they're going to keep a roof over their head and a meal on the table. Without worrying that they're one medical emergency away from losing everything they've worked for. You want people creating small, lifestyle businesses? Give them a safety net and l…

No. Any government big enough to bail everyone out, is big enough to take away everything we have. One of the parent posters said they didn't get the Trump thing. It's easy. Trump whether worth $1 or Ten Billion dollars got what converservatives and the majority want; government out of the way. And preferably the end of career politicians.

So most federal conservatives. Who are career politicians. Want to get rid of career politicians? After doing nothing to get rid of career politicians their whole career?

This doesn’t track. No politician from either side wants to limit themselves out of a job.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#635

Post by kelnos »

marricks wrote: post #485
pmorici wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High housing prices aren't the result of stagnant wages and rising wages will only cause housing to become more expensive (more money chasing the same housing stock) unless something is done to boost supply. Unions don't fix this, they might make it worse on the margins. Unionization is a mixed bag. The UAW has been in the news recently for a seemingly never ending parade of union leaders being sent to jail for corru…

How many empty houses are there in the US, millions? How many luxury condos are being built and sit unoccupied? It seems like people always come out of the woodwork to explain how rising wages aren’t helpful and are solution must always seem to involve paying for more things (this cases houses).

It doesn't matter how many houses remain empty in the US as a whole. Presumably locations with high vacancy rates are places with low demand (ignoring, for the moment, places with large amounts of foreign real estate investors who parasitically decide to leave their properties empty).

Raising wages in places where housing is in high demand, but short supply, will just serve to increase home prices further. That doesn't mean we shouldn't raise wages, it just means the real problem housing-wise is the lack of supply.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#636

Post by tsimionescu »

triactual wrote: post #502
tsimionescu wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your view is massively in the wrong. Companies are wasting waaaay more money on stock buybacks, huge compensation packages for executives, nepotism and corruption in business deals and other similar things than they are on employee wages.

This is pure fantasy. Minimum wage in the US is 2-10x what it is in low cost regions. Not even touching regulations. US experts travel to those regions to hand-hold every step necessary in order to make any product not forced to be built in the US by taxes or regulation. I did this for years and I hate it. I have worked for years in both American and foreign factories and I can assure you that they can automate just…

Sure, but the problem is it's not just minimum wages that are 2-10x higher in the US. It's all wages. I don't know the manufacturing sector personally, but I can look at the tech sector.

I am a senior software engineer in Romania working for an American company. I am well appreciated and currently have a significant hand in designing major pieces of one of our bigger products, working with a Romanian team, a US team and a team in India. I'm explaining this just to make it clear I am not some contractor code monkey working in a sweatshop. My salary though, which is quite good for my country, is 5-10x smaller than the kinds of salaries software devs expect in California, and even Atlanta or Austin. I am higher up the corporate ladder, and better appreciated, and have brought more value to this company than many of those people - and so have many of my colleagues from Romania and India.

You can't tell me that it's OK for software devs to make 150k+/year, for sales people to make similar salaries (with bonuses), for layers and layers of middle management (who often have negative value for the company when evaluated objectively) to do the same, for executives to make tens or hundreds of millions, for shareholders to make record profits; but then if the assembly line workers get 31k/year, THAT is what's bleeding the company dry.

You're not wrong about the lack of US manufacturing, and the lack of motivation for it. But you are dead wrong about the reasons behind it.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#637

Post by secabeen »

skrtskrt wrote: post #391
lotsofpulp wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think I echoed that. I said that Democrats have not had a majority by more than 1 for a long time. That is just numbers, it has nothing to do with willpower. You cannot realistically expect every single party member to toe the line, so effectively, as a party they have to compromise heavily just to get the things through that they have.

It is obviously a matter of willpower. The Republicans have no problem getting their moderate members to toe the line on their more extreme stuff. "Moderate" Republican party members would make their statements about "this isn't the way things are done' every time Trump did something crazy, but every single one folded and fell in line, every single time. If it was the priority of the Democratic national party leaders…

> "Moderate" Republican party members would make their statements about "this isn't the way things are done' every time Trump did something crazy, but every single one folded and fell in line, every single time.

The obvious counter-example to this is John McCain's vote to preserve Obamacare and sink the republication attempt to end it. Since then, despite a 2-year period where Republicans controlled house, senate and presidency under Trump, they still could not get a repeal bill passed, due largely to their moderate members.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#638

Post by kelnos »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #467
skrtskrt wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is obviously a matter of willpower. The Republicans have no problem getting their moderate members to toe the line on their more extreme stuff. "Moderate" Republican party members would make their statements about "this isn't the way things are done' every time Trump did something crazy, but every single one folded and fell in line, every single time. If it was the priority of the Democratic national party leaders…

I think you're mistaking an electoral Catch-22 for "willpower" and desire. Because the Republican party tends to line up with rural voters, they have a statistical advantage in both the Senate and the Electoral College; because of gerrymandering, they actually have a statistical advantage in most House races, too. (That last one is more complicated, but the short version is that when Democrats are in charge of redist…

> Because the Republican party tends to line up with rural voters, they have a statistical advantage in both the Senate and the Electoral College

Yep. And frankly it's something of a miracle that we ever have a Democrat in the White House, and a 50-50 Senate.

Many people (myself included, sometimes) complain about how Democrats seem to suck so hard at winning elections, but the system is so heavily stacked toward Republicans, it's pretty impressive that Democrats manage to hold majorities at the federal level at all.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#639

Post by kelnos »

formerkrogeremp wrote: post #618
ashtonkem wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Younger folks today are the unlucky beneficiary of years of wage stagnation and home price inflation Yes, and the pandemic brought a brief moment of dignity (but not safety) to the low paid service workers who make our society operate. They went from the butt of cruel jokes to “essential workers” and “heroes” overnight. It is very, very hard to force people back into undignified circumstances once they’re had even…

I don't know about dignity. Ask any nurse, doctor, grocery worker, restaurant worker, etc. how they feel about being called a hero. Calling us that to exploit our sense of duty or compassion. Giving us pats on the back and "bonuses" if that amounting to half a week of rent or food. We won't just stop at being actual people. We'll keep on organizing and quitting and lying flat or whatever we need to do to get our shar…

That is what has felt so hollow to me over the past two years. I'm not an "essential worker", so I've been looking at this from the outside, but it's felt so gross seeing all the "hero" framing with all the "huge thanks", but without anything tangible to go with it. How about we pay people more? Maybe give more paid vacation? Maybe find ways to make these jobs more attractive so more people will want to do them and relieve some of the pressure on the people who have gotten nothing but "thanks for being a hero" for the duration of the pandemic?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#640

Post by djrobstep »

seibelj wrote: post #571
djrobstep wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can always get a new job. But if every company has shareholders, can’t avoid that. Really don’t understand the reasoning to not making contributing to shareholder profit voluntary. Completely illogical. Basically you agree it’s authoritarian but “it’s better than the alternative” which is bullshit.

There are worker co-ops and communal living groups. No one forces you to join a traditional corporation. You could also (gasp!) start your own company… But that’s a lot of work!

You've misunderstood. I want to work at the company, I just don't want to be forced to contribute shareholder profits - just like you want to work at the company but don't want to be forced to contribute union dues.
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