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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#621

Post by hither_shores »

stale2002 wrote: post #614
hither_shores wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NLRA has historically been interpreted in a way that denies bargaining rights to members-only unions. It hasn't been tested in a while, and it's possible that the current NLRB would view the issue differently, but unless and until that happens minority unionism is not a viable strategy in the US.

> that denies bargaining rights to members-only unions Then you don't understand what "bargaining rights" are. It is absolutely fully legal for a members union to negotiation on behalf of its members, if those members consent to it. In the same what that it is fully legal for me to hire a lawyer friend of mine, to bargain on my behalf. What it can't do, is force everyone else, who is not in the members only union, to…

Employers have a legal obligation to negotiate in good faith with unions which are the exclusive representatives of an entire bargaining unit. They have no such obligation to members-only unions. This is what the "right to collectively bargain" refers to in the context of US labor law. If you don't like the terminology, you can try to take it up with the NLRB, but it doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#622

Post by Epa095 »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #487
marricks wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many empty houses are there in the US, millions? How many luxury condos are being built and sit unoccupied? It seems like people always come out of the woodwork to explain how rising wages aren’t helpful and are solution must always seem to involve paying for more things (this cases houses).

Why deny basic laws of supply and demand? Almost all economists agree low supply of homes is a factor. https://econofact.org/why-and-where-are-housing-prices-risin... https://www.forbes.com/advisor/mortgages/homes-for-sale-hit-... https://www.barrons.com/articles/may-housing-starts-51623796... Supplies are hitting record lows. There will always be millions of temporarily vacant homes in a country the size of the US a…

>Nobody is asking developers to build only "luxury condos". Where did you get that from?

He did not say that though... He commented that many got built, but withouth any indication of why. You read it as him claiming that 'someone is asking them'. I read it as a reflection on the uneven distribution of wealth (which unions can help with).

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#623

Post by kelnos »

refurb wrote: post #613
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's accurate. Most conservatives are fair-weather individualists who only care about "liberty" in loose terms as long as the liberty that they believe is being affected is their own. We had to drag conservatives kicking and screaming over the past 30 years to allow gays to have the right to marry and openly serve in the military, just like we had to drag them kicking and screaming 60 years ago to allow minori…

Are you including Obama in that? He was against gay marriage until the tide turned. What about the CA Prop 8 against gay marriage that was widely supported by minorities? Were you "dragging, kicking and screaming" those minorities as well?

I mean... yes?

Clearly you're trying to go for a "gotcha!" type comment, but... so what? People who believed same-sex marriage should be illegal are just as wrong as people who believed interracial marriage should be illegal during much of the last century. It doesn't matter if they called themselves Democrats or Republicans or whatever. It doesn't matter if they were part of some majority or minority. They were just as wrong regardless.

Some people -- Obama included -- changed their minds, for whatever reason. Many people, sadly, still have not. It might be interesting to look at what kind of person still hasn't seen the light on this, and what political party that kind of person is overwhelmingly more likely to identify with, but that still doesn't really matter much to the rightness or wrongness of a previous belief.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#624

Post by cuteboy19 »

refurb wrote: post #613
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's accurate. Most conservatives are fair-weather individualists who only care about "liberty" in loose terms as long as the liberty that they believe is being affected is their own. We had to drag conservatives kicking and screaming over the past 30 years to allow gays to have the right to marry and openly serve in the military, just like we had to drag them kicking and screaming 60 years ago to allow minori…

Are you including Obama in that? He was against gay marriage until the tide turned. What about the CA Prop 8 against gay marriage that was widely supported by minorities? Were you "dragging, kicking and screaming" those minorities as well?

'Minorities' are not inherently liberal or conservative. And it's possible to be conservative on one issue only

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#625

Post by wutbrodo »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #551
wutbrodo wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> large plots of land This assumption that you've smuggled in begs the entire question

Isn't that the american dream? Owning a nice house with large living spaces for a complete family, amenities such as pools and outdoor areas, garage with at least two cars? There's a reason people living in small standardized modular pods in extremely dense skyscrapers is a staple of cyberpunk dystopias.

As the perfect complement to the parent comment, you're conveniently ignoring the qualifier "close to the city center". No part of the American dream has ever claimed the suburban paradise to be in the middle of Manhattan. It's a contradiction by definition.

To go on a bit of a tangent, this is what bugs me so much about the housing conversation. People take fragments of thoughts and stitch them together into belief systems that are trivially incoherent. I'd be happy to live and let live if these people didn't also vote....

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#626

Post by kelnos »

heavyset_go wrote: post #617
stale2002 wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that denies bargaining rights to members-only unions Then you don't understand what "bargaining rights" are. It is absolutely fully legal for a members union to negotiation on behalf of its members, if those members consent to it. In the same what that it is fully legal for me to hire a lawyer friend of mine, to bargain on my behalf. What it can't do, is force everyone else, who is not in the members only union, to…

Workers are free to take non-union jobs if they don't want to be in a union.

Except when all the jobs in your industry are union jobs.

Unless you're suggesting someone in this position should have to retrain for a different industry. Which, sure, ok, I guess, but the cost to do so might be quite high to the point of being life-ruining.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#627

Post by tsimionescu »

robomartin wrote: post #561
hotpotamus wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "I can just buy it on Aliexpress" argument is fine and very real. The problem with accepting this without looking inward at the decisions and policies that do not allow us to compete is that things will get worse here and better there. It is inevitable. Is it not the exact analog to "I can just outsource my production to China"? What differentiates a Chinese worker from a US worker? And if they are the same in…

> What differentiates a Chinese worker from a US worker? That's an interesting and very important question that is both easy and hard to answer. My experience with China is nothing but positive along just-about any angle I can imagine. Their attitude towards doing business, their entrepreneurial drive and desire to work with you is, in my opinion, unmatched. The best example I have is from the very first time I had a…

So in this example, at least half the problem was definitely not high prices on the factory floor, it was bad salespeople, an obsession with extracting profit, corporate bureaucracy, inefficient work practices.

Given what you witnessed from the customer facing side, so you think there were no similar delays and inefficiencies in their manufacturing and acquisitions side, and no similar attempts at maximizing profits in their quote?

I'm not claiming they could have matched the Chinese price, but I am also not willing to blame either the full price nor the whole exchange on 15$/h factory floor staff.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#628

Post by Epa095 »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #596
CapmCrackaWaka wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see the cyclical rise and fall of workers unions in the US. I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a balance between worker and employer rights - however it seems that, at least in the US, that balance swings back and forth quite often. It seems like anti-union proponents will remind you of the bad times when unions had too much power, and union supporters will remind you of the bad times when…

>> I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a balance between worker and employer rights But that's not what we're talking about here. If I am making $8 an hour at my current job and Amazon is willing to pay me $15 an hour but the union says no, first of all we insist on $20 an hour and second of all we decide who gets those jobs and your name isn't on the list, that isn't worker rights, is it? It's not worker right…

And you go straight to fulfill OPs prophecy: "It seems like anti-union proponents will remind you of the bad times when unions had too much power,"

BTW, the way you characterise unions are interesting. Very different from how they work here in Northern Europe. I wonder if American unions really are as corrupt and screwed up as the Internet makes them sound.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#630

Post by ohgodplsno »

nxm wrote: post #384
alexk307 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization. One can only hope. Collective bargaining is the most powerful tool to dismantle income inequality and corporate greed.

Or persistent labor strikes and disruptions. See France

Oh no, 5 weeks of paid time off, 35 hours work week, universal retirement fund, physically hard jobs getting to retire early. And once a month some trains don't come in, and they dare warn you a week in advance. France is truly unlivable, a socialist hellscape :(
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