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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#451

Post by lotsofpulp »

skrtskrt wrote: post #391
lotsofpulp wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think I echoed that. I said that Democrats have not had a majority by more than 1 for a long time. That is just numbers, it has nothing to do with willpower. You cannot realistically expect every single party member to toe the line, so effectively, as a party they have to compromise heavily just to get the things through that they have.

It is obviously a matter of willpower. The Republicans have no problem getting their moderate members to toe the line on their more extreme stuff. "Moderate" Republican party members would make their statements about "this isn't the way things are done' every time Trump did something crazy, but every single one folded and fell in line, every single time. If it was the priority of the Democratic national party leaders…

> If it was the priority of the Democratic national party leadership to get real, actual big legislation done that benefited workers over companies and investors, then they would.

Without 51 Senate votes, how?

I would rather not have politicians that “fall in line” for the party’s sake, and rather “fall in line” for the country’s sake.

>It's just obviously not something they care about, and it's obvious why.

>The party is run by obscenely wealthy members and donors, just like the Republicans are.

I think the fact that Democrat states exclusively have better worker protections and laws says a lot more about which party is run by who. Not to mention that federal Democrats actually propose things like universal pre K, expanding access to healthcare (note Republican states exclusively opted out of Medicaid expansion), and so on and so forth.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#452

Post by endisneigh »

coredog64 wrote: post #432
endisneigh wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying but an "optional" union is pretty much bound to collapse inevitably.

Boeing’s other union (SPEEA) is optional and has been for decades.

That’s only because there’s a union to begin with. If the option was union or no union that would be a story - is it possible to not be in the union at all and not pay dues?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#453

Post by jackosdev »

wiredone wrote: post #447

I really don’t understand this push tbh. Amazon is already the industry leader in pay and benefits for these roles. Why was this needed? In 2022, the only time I tend to see a union do anything, it’s to disrupt and create mob like holds on things (shipping, trucking etc). There seems to be waaay more corruption in anything union related than without. Can someone seriously explain why this is needed or a good thing? W…

Spent a long time in Australian mines, some are heavily unionised, what you say is right it does attract the most toxic people, but at the same time even the truck drivers earn a fantastic living they can use to support a family. This is only possible because of the decades of strong unions negotiating better pay so the mines had to share the wealth. So to answer your question, the poorest people in the company benefit, despite the toxicity it can create.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#454

Post by tuckerman »

oblio wrote: post #418
tuckerman wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product managers at places like Alphabet and Meta are treated extremely well, make great salaries in the bay area, and (at least pre pandemic) were catered to with many great benefits (including catering). There are some jobs/places where this isn't the case, but many…

> Alphabet The Company Formerly Known As Google, that literally had to settle (i.e. paid money to not lose the trial) for collusion to depress employee wages? That company? Yeah, employee interests at heart > Meta For employees I hear The Company Formerly Knows as Facebook is actually quite good. But they're not a charity. > were catered to with many great benefits (including catering) Those benefits are cheap when b…

Isn’t getting caught and settling some evidence that the system works to some extent?

I know what the benefits are for, and while there are some good side-effects for the company, a lot of them are genuinely good for the employees as well. I had enough massage credits, Covid cue tests, and time spent in great gyms to attest to that. If they can be bought in bulk, all the more reason I appreciate it being someone’s job at the company to manage that.

I’m not saying these companies are your best pal and will look out for you against their own interests, but I personally don’t feel like I need or want a union between me and my employer. I don’t fault anyone for wanting one, but the hyperbole and passing opinions as facts on the other side, especially without considering the downsides of unions, isn’t doing anything to convince me.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#455

Post by britch »

wiredone wrote: post #447

I really don’t understand this push tbh. Amazon is already the industry leader in pay and benefits for these roles. Why was this needed? In 2022, the only time I tend to see a union do anything, it’s to disrupt and create mob like holds on things (shipping, trucking etc). There seems to be waaay more corruption in anything union related than without. Can someone seriously explain why this is needed or a good thing? W…

Pay and Benefits are one thing. Working conditions are another. You can pay me 15 an hour (Only $30K a year) but if I have to pee in a bottle or don't have enough schedule consistency to see my kids it's not worth it.

Amazon may pay well for now, but let's be honest, Amazon is a monopolistic project. What happens when there's less competition than there is right now? Do you think wages stay where they're at without some kind of pressure?

A union is the only ways employees can have any real power in the workplace. Democratically run unions give employees real negotiating power over what it means to go to work day to day. Unions are not perfect but what group of humans ever is?

I'd take a union job over a non-union job any day of the week.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#456

Post by lr4444lr »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #132
legitster wrote: post #108

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions. He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smalle…

>He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. This is interesting. I'm a government employee with a union, a pension, health insurance, the whole deal. The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever.…

> The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever.

Pretty much all teachers unions negotiate healthcare and pensions, I think. That is, what plans you have access to, the contributions you need to make for them, and the dept. of ed.'s contribution and eligibility rules. The union and the state dept. of ed negotiate together.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#457

Post by HanShotFirst »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #398
rootusrootus wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea of the republican working class party has always been more of a clever rhetorical strategy than a reality. I tend to agree, but then again I really don't grok the Trump thing, and I can't claim that I saw it coming or sticking around as long as it has. At this point I would not be terribly shocked to see a bit of role reversal between the two major parties.

I've been a conservative since I had a minimum wage job, for one reason: I want the government out of my life as much as possible. I firmly believe nobody will care about my family as much as I do and I don't want the government's golden handcuffs. Leave me alone, let me work, and I'll happily live with whatever happens. I think this is the fundamental disconnect in left-right (economic) politics. The left, as I see…

Without the government your minimum wage job likely would have been sub-minimum wage...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#458

Post by hocuspocus »

nxm wrote: post #384
alexk307 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization. One can only hope. Collective bargaining is the most powerful tool to dismantle income inequality and corporate greed.

Or persistent labor strikes and disruptions. See France

Unions in France are weaker and less prevalent than in many European countries. They organize strikes more often because that's often their only bargaining chip.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#459

Post by chottocharaii »

nxm wrote: post #384
alexk307 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization. One can only hope. Collective bargaining is the most powerful tool to dismantle income inequality and corporate greed.

Or persistent labor strikes and disruptions. See France

that doesn’t sound like an employee problem

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#460

Post by Aunche »

skrtskrt wrote: post #391
lotsofpulp wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think I echoed that. I said that Democrats have not had a majority by more than 1 for a long time. That is just numbers, it has nothing to do with willpower. You cannot realistically expect every single party member to toe the line, so effectively, as a party they have to compromise heavily just to get the things through that they have.

It is obviously a matter of willpower. The Republicans have no problem getting their moderate members to toe the line on their more extreme stuff. "Moderate" Republican party members would make their statements about "this isn't the way things are done' every time Trump did something crazy, but every single one folded and fell in line, every single time. If it was the priority of the Democratic national party leaders…

What exactly is the "extreme stuff" Republican legislatures get through? They got the tax cut, but all of them agreed to that anyways.

Also, Manchin is from one of the reddest of red states, so the Democrats don't really have any leverage on him.

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