Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#231

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:47 PM UTC

OwlsParlay wrote: post #178

twofornone wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you think white people who lived during the time of segregation or redlining had white privilege Whites were 80-90% of the population during that time, assigning a vague notion of "privilege" to an entire race of people as a basis for reverse racism is not only useless, but misleading, because these "privileged" people were still in competition with other whites (and non-redlined minorities). The implication is t…

> Whites were 80-90% of the population during that time, assigning a vague notion of "privilege" to an entire race of people as a basis for reverse racism is not only useless, but misleading, because these "privileged" people were still in competition with other whites (and non-redlined minorities). The implication is that they collectively derived benefit from unfair rules against blacks, but frankly this is a disho…

[deleted]

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#232

Post by decremental » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:48 PM UTC

MadSudaca wrote: post #149

xboxnolifes wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of the existence of China's social credit system, but that's not exactly a system I'm keen on holding up as a something to strive for. This being in the UK, I feel we should look at UK historical norms, not China's.

I get it’s UK and may be the most influential western country in the last 200-300 years. But time goes on, countries evolve and often they do so in unexpected ways. My argument is that, at some point we must detach a country from its past (whatever that means) and accept the direction its constituents are now wanting to take. Even if we personally don’t approve of said direction.

Except it's not an evolution. There's nothing organic taking place. It's a concerted, top-down effort to manipulate and coerce populations into going along with things that are expressly against their own freedoms and interests by people who are by any standard their enemies.

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#233

Post by Pyramus » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #195

Pyramus wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for racist speech, I really truly believe that censoring does not ever serve its intended purpose. What is censoring for you? I don't see a single Western democracy that is not "censoring" or restricting the rights of individuals to some extent. It's just to a different extent. E.g. the US has speed limits on highways, but Germany hasn't. You must not deny the holocaust in Germany, but you can do so in the US. T…

> E.g. the US has speed limits on highways, but Germany hasn't. A speed limit is a censure not a censor by any means whatsoever. > "censoring" or restricting the rights of individuals to some extent. Censorship is not any restriction but restrictions on books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc.

Agree with your definition of censorship.

> A speed limit is a censure not a censor by any means whatsoever.

My point is there is a reason every single Western democracy has restrictions to free speech. And these restriction come from the same rationale as a speed limit, say, that is to balance the rights of individuals with the rights of all other members of society.

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#234

Post by a_shovel » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

mlindner wrote: post #104

matthewmacleod wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they don't have a privilege for being white. As a white (and formerly working class) boy from the UK, I can confidently say that nobody has at any point in my life discriminated against me on the basis of my ethnic background. That is the extent of what this expression means – it does not mean that any individual to whom it applied is in a superior position relative to others, but only that they do not suffer from di…

The lack of having been discriminated against is by definition not a "privilege". What's wrong isn't the lack of discrimination, but the idea that lack of discrimination should be called a "privledge" rather than a "norm". It attacks people for not having hardship, namely turning something that's good int o something that's bad. The use of the term "white privledge" fundamentally applies that to make things "equal" w…

Each sentence, though individually false, comes together to produce an overall point that is also false.

A lack of a disadvantage others have is a privilege. The point of calling it a privilege is to emphasize that white people benefit from racism against other groups even when they don't do anything racist themselves. Benefitting knowingly from discrimination against others while doing nothing to end it is complicity. The term "privilege" is not an attack on white people, it is an attack on racism. It absolutely does not imply that we should bring down white people or be racist to them. Privilege will end when discrimination against non-white people ends.

At least set up a monthly donation to an anti-racism organization, or something like that.

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#235

Post by hairofadog » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

namelessoracle wrote: post #136

trashtester wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with banning things like "racism" is that words change meaning over time. Maybe some time in the future, any reference to "White Privlege" may be considered racist, for instance.

The OK hand sign is racist now. There's rumbles of milk being racist. The scary thing that should terrify everyone is we are going to come to a point where being called racist no longer matters or nobody cares, and then your gonna see REAL racism come back with a fury and force you wont like.

While I am not condoning banning speech, your examples above compile into a pretty disingenuous take. While I'm sure an example could be found if you looked hard enough, I have never once heard of anyone crying 'racist' about normal people making the normal OK hand sign innocently.

I have, however, heard the term 'racist' accurately used to describe people making an inverted OK sign when said people happen to be standing at a Proud Boys rally, or by people who otherwise spend their time hanging out with, or trolling as, white supremacists. [^1]

Same deal with milk. It's only racist when it's being used as a symbol by people who are intentionally being racist:

> "One slide Dr. Novembre has folded into his recent talks depicts a group of white nationalists chugging milk at a 2017 gathering to draw attention to a genetic trait known to be more common in white people than others — the ability to digest lactose as adults." [^2]

That doesn't mean "milk is racist", or that drinking milk is racist; it means unabashed racists seem to enjoy co-opting common symbols as code for their secret clubs.

[^1]: https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-h...

[^2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/us/white-supremacists-sci...

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#236

Post by hairofadog » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

a_shovel wrote: post #218

namelessoracle wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OK hand sign is racist now. There's rumbles of milk being racist. The scary thing that should terrify everyone is we are going to come to a point where being called racist no longer matters or nobody cares, and then your gonna see REAL racism come back with a fury and force you wont like.

The OK sign is only racist if it's being used by racists to signal to other racists that they are racist. This remains true if you replace "The OK sign" with any other innocuous act or item. These kinds of statements are the result of a wretched game of Telephone. "White supremacists are using the OK sign as an identifying signal" became "Crazy leftists say the OK sign is racist". It's an effective recruiting tool on…

You said what I was trying to say a lot more succinctly.

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#237

Post by Pyramus » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 8:06 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #108

Pyramus wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for racist speech, I really truly believe that censoring does not ever serve its intended purpose. What is censoring for you? I don't see a single Western democracy that is not "censoring" or restricting the rights of individuals to some extent. It's just to a different extent. E.g. the US has speed limits on highways, but Germany hasn't. You must not deny the holocaust in Germany, but you can do so in the US. T…

Yes, absolutely :) I agree with grayness, I just happen to draw my line fairly, for lack of better word, liberally - and specifically so that we Can , to your point, discuss ideas productively as a society - something that censorship explicitly and by definition prevents! I am a proponent of marketplace of ideas and open discussion. To your example, I do not see German laws making denial of holocaust as even remotely…

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning - why would some negative effects of an intervention automatically invalidate the positive effects? If you don't think there are plenty of positive effects, feel free to speak to somebody from the German Jewish community and see how they think about it.

Which is my point - in a democracy restrictions to the rights of individuals are there to protect the rights of others. This rationale is shared by many restrictions to individual rights, hence the speed limit example.

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#238

Post by xanaxagoras » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 8:08 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #126

Crickets from the usual crowd who would be crying "cancel culture!" on all TV and radio for weeks and calling for heads to roll had the tweet been about something other than a cause they support (military worship). Governments and companies continue to get more and more empowered to do this stuff because people always show that it has never really been about freedom but rather pushing their own views.

I'm on the right, the far right even by HN standards. This response is either comically out of touch or disingenuous. Nobody in my circles is celebrating this, it has always been about freedom, and I have never encountered your straw man in real life or even on the dangerous alt-right forums where I was radicalized.

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#239

Post by Pyramus » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 8:09 PM UTC

hervature wrote: post #212

Pyramus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed limits are not objective at all - Germany infamously does not have speed limits on highways. And yes, speed limit laws, do change over time. And no, you can't be punished for having broken a speed limit in the past, that is not in effect today. Parent's comparison seems rather apt.

They obviously meant speed is quantifiable. You can measure speed and say "you violated the limit".

Yes, but it doesn't strengthen the argument.

If society A says the speed limit is X and society B it's Y and society C it's infinite. What's the point that speed is objectively measurable?

Re: Twitter user sentenced to 150 hours of community service in UK

#240

Post by listless » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 8:13 PM UTC

basisword wrote: post #13

I’m generally in favour of some limits on speech. I don’t think you should be able to tweet racist messages for example. It’s obviously very complicated and something people are going to argue a lot about. BUT this case has made me change my opinion. Things much worse than this are tweeted every day and this is the one that gets prosecuted. It’s blatantly politically motivated (‘national hero’, British soldier etc) a…

> "You shouldn't be able to tweet racist messages"

This seems right on the surface, but the problem is that it's really hard to determine what a racist message is. For instance, if black people want to discuss their frustration with white people in honest language, it might sound pretty racist. But I'm not sure any of us would want to curtail that. FB had this exact problem not too long ago..

https://revealnews.org/article/how-activists-of-color-lose-b...