Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 785 posts

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#221

Post by DiggyJohnson »

whimsicalism wrote: post #123
legitster wrote: post #108

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions. He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smalle…

i feel like I'm missing the causal link in your comment between controlling healthcare portfolios -> shrinking.

I gathered that the casual link is the admin bloat and complexity of managing health insurance compared to more direct applications of collective bargaining and potential priorities.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#222

Post by tuckerman »

oblio wrote: post #29
strombofulous wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should developers unionize? I love not being in a union. If my company starts dicking me around I'll quit and find another job. Besides, if I do something so bad my boss wants to fire me, fine then I'll go work somewhere where people want me. I don't want to have to bring in my union rep to argue about it since going somewhere else means losing my tenure and taking a 30% pay cut. The only time unions make sense i…

You shouldn't be forced to join a union but joining a union should not be an issue for any company. In practice, creating unions is heavily frowned upon and discouraged through various underhanded means. That should tell you that companies view unions as enemies, and collective bargaining in general. And companies for sure don't have your interests in mind. Also for sure you don't have the negotiating power they have…

Not arguing against all unions here, but I think saying all companies don't have our interests in mind is a bit hyperbolic. Many software engineers and product managers at places like Alphabet and Meta are treated extremely well, make great salaries in the bay area, and (at least pre pandemic) were catered to with many great benefits (including catering). There are some jobs/places where this isn't the case, but many silicon valley developers have a fairly symbiotic relationship with their employers.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#223

Post by mjmahone17 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #155
legitster wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a macro level, a US union is much more expensive per member than a EU union because members/companies have to front the cost of healthcare (as opposed to countries with universal healthcare). On a micro level, traditional US unions have huge pension funds that they have won from employers and promised to existing members, and so they can be very restrictive on membership qualifications.

Hm, in my experience, even in a union context, healthcare was supplied by the employer, it was just negotiated in the contract. I'm not sure why that would make a US union much more expensive. Typically, you don't really get unions with dues unless they've managed to get a contract with a wage increase that covers the dues.

A union is much less likely to allow a company to use the cheapest health plan possible. So their purview is larger, as they need to ensure their members have access to basic benefits other countries provide “as right” regardless of union membership.

This means the cost, to the company, of using union labor is even higher, but also that more of the union’s money and energy is spent dealing with healthcare as opposed to ensuring safe workspaces or wage sharing or PTO or other labor concessions.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#224

Post by hn_version_0023 »

coolso wrote: post #27
hn_version_0023 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NY Times prides itself on its 5th grade reading level.

Trash talk the Times however you see fit and I'll probably back you up on it (they are laughably liberally/"progressive"ly biased, and continuing to run cover for the current administration as best they can despite it not really working as per the polls), their writing standards are, in my opinion, impeccable and a standout among news organizations, but I suppose not everyone can be perfect always.

I was joking, of course. I don’t actually think there’s anything wrong with their writing standards — but its fun to poke fun! We all make mistakes!

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#225

Post by JaimeThompson »

coolso wrote: post #113
JaimeThompson wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any evidence of anything you just said?

[flagged]

It's strange that you appear to think opinions don't need a factual basis. You really should research what you are saying as the facts on the ground are way different then you appear to think they are.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#226

Post by jfjfkfmf »

verall wrote: post #196
VirusNewbie wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will fight tooth and nail to keep our industry from unionizing. One can simply look at the public school system and how well it performs with one of the strongest unions in the country. You don't have well paid teachers (except those who have been teaching for a long time, at the detriment to new teachers),you don't serve the children well and you now have to navigate both a career and politics of a union. Unions b…

> One can simply look at the public school system and how well it performs with one of the strongest unions in the country. Except that states that outlaw teacher's unions have lower teacher pay and worse average scores/outcomes. They're totally comparable too, public daycare ahem school and software engineering.

Non union private schools have higher test scores than union public schools in the same states

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#227

Post by bjourne »

xyzzyz wrote: post #125
throwaway684936 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mistake is thinking a large corporation gives a single flying fuck about you as an individual employee (who's proven themselves rowdy by trying to bargain).

Every single time I put a notice in a large corporation, they tried to bargain with me to stop me from quitting, offering raises and improved working condition, eg. projects with more leadership roles. So no, they do care in some industries, especially when the cost of hiring a single worker is higher than Amazon warehouse workers entire yearly pay.

So every time you quit you found out that you were paid far less than what your labor was worth...

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#228

Post by wahern »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #132
legitster wrote: post #108

I had a boss who was an expensive consultant for unions. He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smalle…

>He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. This is interesting. I'm a government employee with a union, a pension, health insurance, the whole deal. The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever.…

Private corporations no longer offer pension (i.e. defined benefit) plans, so if employees want a pension it's going to be managed by a union, assuming they even have a union. That's probably for the better because these days (as opposed to 70 years ago), unions will be far more responsible managers of a pension fund than corporations, partly because of stricter government oversight.

Some other countries have nationally managed pension funds. All the U.S. has is Social Security, a minimalist safety-net pension, and it's a heavy political lift just to maintain that, so I don't see things changing here.

Also, don't unions literally sit on the board of corporations in countries like Germany? The notion that U.S. unions have too much power just seems like a typically American spin on the efficacy of unions--a bias veiled as a criticism. There's a host of reasons unions aren't more prevalent in the U.S., and they feed back onto each other, but if you had to boil them all down, IMO it's because our culture is rather hostile to unions, and it's always been that way. Even at their peak popularity in early- and mid-20th century, mainstream unions (as opposed to the infamous Wobblies, which never had significant membership) were remarkably conservative as compared to their counterparts in Europe, reflecting the general culture.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#229

Post by zenexer »

javert wrote: post #168
zenexer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that many people are likely putting their jobs on the line by voicing support for unions, it’s unfair to forbid new accounts from taking place in these discussions.

I don't think the conclusion you reach follows from the premises. There is unfairness in the world. That does not mean that HN is obligated to be a soapbox for all unfairness. Anyway, comments on HN should be intellectually substantive. That one was not. Yes, we should discuss this on HN. No, we should not have brand new accounts posting cheap opinion comments that are devoid of intellectual content.

Not every comment needs to be intellectually substantive. It's okay to be human and express some excitement now and then.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#230

Post by cool_dude85 »

tharne wrote: post #213
brimble wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comparatively, European unions are much "weaker" - or maybe more accurately their purview is much smaller. They control smaller geographic regions, and in general, all of the heavy lifting for healthcare and pensions and worker rights is handled by the government. So the unions' focus is entirely on the collective bargaining piece. Also, unions tend to be more regulated - they can't carry so much bloat. All in all,…

> I'm not sure I'd call unions legally-mandated to hold 33-50% (depending on company size) of the company's board seats "weaker". That's the situation in Germany. I think that's a brilliant policy. It forces the unions to have some skin in the game. If you're on the board, you have a fiduciary responsibility to the company and it's shareholders. In the U.S., most union bosses are happy to bleed a company dry provided…

>It's even worse with the public unions. Since governments can theoretically keep raising taxes, there's no real limiting factor to how much the unions can demand.

Do a search on governmentjobs.com for a job title you're familiar with and decide whether the unions have been successful at bleeding the government dry via high salaries. My anecdotal experience: you need to get to one level below Chief where I work to draw a salary close to a FAANG programmer, union pay tops out at 150k.

Post reply on HN