Earlier quoted context omitted.
You probably think that you do, but in reality you don't. Large corporations have been proven to fix wages for tech workers[1]. There's literally no way that you could have any possible way of bargaining your way around that as a single person. [1]: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/04/24/306592297...
Looks like the US government "bargained" for me there, without the need for a union.
Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
151–160 of 785 posts
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#152Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Also Union actions against nonunion jobs are borderline criminal most of the time.
Unions represent their members' interests, that's the entire point of unions. It says more about the entire profession of policing (i.e. that there are so many terrible officers that the not-terrible ones can't do anything about them) than it does about unions, to be honest.
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once you acknowledge that unions are useless and bad, yes, this is correct. If unions were actually beneficial to workers, then companies would have a very hard time hiring non-union workers.
This makes zero sense, you're drawing huge conclusions based on a prisoner's dilemma situation. Of course it's beneficial to be a defector, you get all the benefit but none of the cost. Once no one is unionized at all or it's so small to not have any pull the benefit disappears. It's like saying that taxes are useless because given the choice people would opt-out if they could, ignoring the consequences of if everyon…
The former is indeed a prisoner's dilemma. The latter is a valid complaint and an entirely valid thing to want. And the only answer I've ever seen given is "well then get involved and try to steer it in a direction you care about", with no allowance for people who don't agree with the direction it has taken and don't want to spend their whole career struggling (likely unsuccessfully) to change it.
I think collective bargaining is a powerful and useful tool, that in isolation, more people would likely support. I think it's unfortunate that that tool has lost a lot of its power, in part because it comes along with structures and assumptions that many people do not share.
As one of many examples: people often complain that a union shop values duration of tenure more than experience or skill, and devalues the latter because it's easy to objectively measure duration of tenure. I've seen people say "well, if you form a union, it doesn't have to work that way"; that's always spoken from the point of view of the people who put together or maintain the union. But that doesn't do any good if you weren't involved with the initial setup, and you're just faced with how it currently works. If you push for something else, you're tilting at a very large windmill. And it's valid for someone to say "I'd like to have collective bargaining, but if it's going to do something tenure-based then on balance I'd rather reject it".
The ability to individually choose to join or not isn't just a simple prisoner's dilemma where defecting is a loss; it's also something that gives actual teeth to a requirement to be representative of employees, if an employee believes they'd be better off with no representation other than themselves than they would with the current representation. That would have to be a pretty serious level of failure, if an employee believes that membership has negative value to them.
Conversely, it might also resolve the prisoner's dilemma problem if negotiated benefits were tied to union membership. While some negotiated benefits (e.g. working conditions) are inherently available to everyone, others (e.g. policies, vacation time, pay structure) may be such that they could be offered to those who are a member of the organization that bargained for them.
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
>He explained the reason unions in the US were shrinking is that they are too powerful. They control huge pension and healthcare portfolios and can completely control the relationship with employers, especially in closed shop situations. This is interesting. I'm a government employee with a union, a pension, health insurance, the whole deal. The union does not control the pension or healthcare in any way whatsoever.…
I believe Teamsters is the biggest. But there are enough that taxpayers ended up bailing out a ton this year: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/07/business/dealbook/bailout... But even if your union doesn't directly control your healthcare plan, I would still assume it was part of the collective bargaining?
And yeah, pensions, healthcare are all part of collective bargaining. Do you control the healthcare plan where you work? I assume it's part of negotiating the terms of your employment, so you could always ask for a really good one.
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
i feel like I'm missing the causal link in your comment between controlling healthcare portfolios -> shrinking.
On a macro level, a US union is much more expensive per member than a EU union because members/companies have to front the cost of healthcare (as opposed to countries with universal healthcare). On a micro level, traditional US unions have huge pension funds that they have won from employers and promised to existing members, and so they can be very restrictive on membership qualifications.
Typically, you don't really get unions with dues unless they've managed to get a contract with a wage increase that covers the dues.
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#156Everyone loves unions, somehow they overlook the outrageous power of police unions to keep terrible people in their ranks. Also Union actions against nonunion jobs are borderline criminal most of the time.
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
I very much agree. Every worker should unionize, for the good of us all. Far too much power has been ceded to companies pushing for abusive working practices, that are now largely culturally normalized.
Well, no, I can bargain individually better than a group could try to on my behalf.
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#158It's great that people are standing up against the abusive power of big companies. When will Apple (App Store) developers unionize?
> When will Apple developers unionize? Do you mean developers that Apple employs full-time, or third-party developers that publish on Apple's App Store?
Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#159Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
HN is not a political forum. I get that we like to talk politics here, and that's all well and good. But having someone make a brand new account to make a political opinion post that has little to no intellectual content seems like it should be unwelcome.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108404 > Why don't we have some politics but discuss it in thoughtful ways? Well, that's exactly what the HN guidelines call for, but it's insufficient to stop people from flaming each other when political conflicts activate the primitive brain. Under such conditions, we become tribal creatures, not intellectually curious ones. We can't be both at the same time. > A community li…