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Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

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Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#271

Post by weq »

toomanydoubts wrote: post #100
kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday I came across a job position on a company that does 100% mob(!) programming everyday¹. This means every programmer works 6 hours per day on a zoom call with 2 other programmers, rotating roles between typist, navigator and support every ten minutes. I couldn't help but feel my soul being slowly crushed as I read further on their description of the daily activities. Needless to say,…

I love pair programming !!!for specific tasks!!! Just like TDD, i think its pragmatic and should be based on your needs. But all or nothing, naaa, thats just coolaid or micromanagement.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#272

Post by 314 »

saulrh wrote: post #252
kimixa wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I suspect that the "group projects" often done in CS degrees are actually intended to give the student experience in a failed project and learning from their mistakes, and understanding that not every project is a success or failure due to their actions alone.

Kind of backfired for me, because only very rarely were professors able to assign projects that were big enough that I couldn't do them entirely by myself, and I was outright incentivized to do so because even working at that speed I could still produce the whole project at A-grade quality when my teammates would have been satisfied with a B or a C.

Another cynical take would be that you were given perfect training for a software team in industry. Every team tends to have a small number of individuals trying to get that A, while their colleagues are not only satisfied with a B or a C but spend most of their days in meetings trying to ensure they drag down the software to their target.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#273

Post by weq »

Stratoscope wrote: post #207
toomanydoubts wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday I came across a job position on a company that does 100% mob(!) programming everyday¹. This means every programmer works 6 hours per day on a zoom call with 2 other programmers, rotating roles between typist, navigator and support every ten minutes. I couldn't help but feel my soul being slowly crushed as I read further on their description of the daily activities. Needless to say,…

Wow. I recommend everyone read through that page. Some may love it. Obviously the bosses at SOCi do. For me it is a dystopian nightmare. To summarize: there are three roles, Typist, Navigator, and Support. The Typist is not allowed to think . They are explicitly described as a "smart input device". For the most part, only the Navigator is allowed to think. They tell the Typist exactly what to type, and the Typist mus…

That is literly a description of programming hell for me (20+yrs also here). My fingers are so much better at streaming my thoughts them my mouth which often struggles to keep up.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#274

Post by sachin_m »

The idea that “developers spend most of their time in reading and understanding the code” resonated with me, but the tool (gtoolkit) that this article is suggesting is too complex for me to understand and make it work. The tutorials or demos are about an hour long. I would appreciate if any tool can get me started in just 2-3 minutes (max) of hand holding. I don’t want to spend hours in a tool just to get started and then realizing that it will or not work for me.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#275

Post by psyclobe »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55
gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

I can really relate to this comment

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#276

Post by Gatsky »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55
gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

(Note: I am not doubting in any way that you’re great at what you do and highly successful. Nor am I downplaying any difficulties and struggles you have had.)

My genuine question - Is it possible to have ADHD and be a coder? It’s just that coding requires so much focussed attention over long periods. If you are enjoying a career as a coder I’m inclined to think either the ADHD is mild or treated very effectively? Or even that treated ADHD actually makes you better than the median somehow?

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#277

Post by pseudoalternati »

pengaru wrote: post #253
kayodelycaon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

I don't think one requires ADHD and/or short-term memory issues to struggle with serializing their internal state verbally without disrupting said internal state when it's sufficiently broad and deep in complexity. This is literally the problem with interruptions and open-office floor plans for knowledge workers. There's no effing way we're all ADHD-addled goldfish. Decades ago my senior cube-mate liked to tell non-e…

combining serializing their internal state verbally without disrupting said internal state when it's sufficiently broad and deep in complexity.

I struggle with this during technical interviews. I can't think deeply and explain what I'm doing at the same time. Since talking is required it means that I can't think.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#278

Post by sai_c »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #55
gleenn wrote: post #19

People always struggle or avoid doing pair programming, and people always think it means that the developers' time now costs twice as much, but this is a total lie. When I worked at a place that did 100% pair programming with rotation every day, a new developer could hit the ground flying . Sitting next to someone who knows the system and can answer your question immediately means you get up to speed millions of time…

If you worked at a place that did 100% pair programming, anyone who couldn’t succeed at pair programming would be filtered out. Personally, whether or not I can do pair programming has a lot to do who I’m working with, what I’m doing, and what kind of day I’m having. The same thing goes for test-driven development. I have ADHD and short-term memory issues. This causes me to work by feel on some tasks because I don’t…

Have an upvote from me and thank you so much for this comment. This describes perfectly my own state of mind. I've noticed having problems communicating my thoughts about my code in meetings, but simply could not point a finger at the exact reasons. But this describes it perfectly. If I may bother you, could you answer two questions?

- Were you officially diagnosed with ADHD. I never went to a doctor, but in the last years I had growing assumptions I might have ADHD or Asperger (or both).

- Do you follow certain strategies which made communicating your thoughts and ideas easier and/or better?

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#279

Post by erik_seaberg »

pseudoalternati wrote: post #277
pengaru wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think one requires ADHD and/or short-term memory issues to struggle with serializing their internal state verbally without disrupting said internal state when it's sufficiently broad and deep in complexity. This is literally the problem with interruptions and open-office floor plans for knowledge workers. There's no effing way we're all ADHD-addled goldfish. Decades ago my senior cube-mate liked to tell non-e…

combining serializing their internal state verbally without disrupting said internal state when it's sufficiently broad and deep in complexity. I struggle with this during technical interviews. I can't think deeply and explain what I'm doing at the same time. Since talking is required it means that I can't think.

Yeah, I try not to interrupt candidates unless they clearly misunderstood the problem and are building something that doesn’t show their expertise but they think I want. I voted hire on a guy who worked silently for over half an hour and ended up with a good solution, though it’s a little more persuasive for a candidate to offer more signals in case the final code doesn’t come out right.

Re: Developers spend most of their time figuring the system out

#280

Post by eBombzor »

sachin_m wrote: post #274

The idea that “developers spend most of their time in reading and understanding the code” resonated with me, but the tool (gtoolkit) that this article is suggesting is too complex for me to understand and make it work. The tutorials or demos are about an hour long. I would appreciate if any tool can get me started in just 2-3 minutes (max) of hand holding. I don’t want to spend hours in a tool just to get started and…

Spent about half an hour trying to understand what the heck the gt tool is. I have no prior experience of this and I just find it wildly abstract.
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