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California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

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Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#191

Post by rndphs »

SpodGaju wrote: post #185
pmoriarty wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "All [MDMA] does is artificially increase serotonin.... just like prozac" then Prozac and MDMA would have the same effect. But they have radically different effects, so they must do at least something differently, despite sharing some similarities.

Yes, it works more quickly. That’s the only difference. And it is more like the SNRIs, like cymbalta with some effect or encouraging the release of catecholamines. But the effect is the same, more neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft. People abuse Prozac as well if that given you a clue on their similarities. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8093133/ https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.150.12....

As someone who has spent a lot of time reading the science of these chemicals, as well as their cultural impact and the experiences of people that I know and have talked to, as well as many experiences I have read about online. I can say that this is such a bad take that it's almost funny.

It's like saying that a helicopter and a blender are the same device because they both have spinning blades. These two substances are completely different in just about every way that they affect people, aside from producing a mood boost (which is an effect also caused by things like morphine, cocaine, a few different psychedelics, alcohol, caffeine, nitrous oxide, and many many more substances which don't act via serotonin).

One of the main theories on the action of MDMA involves the sudden serotonin release inhibiting the amygdala and thus reducing fear response. Prozac certainly does not do this. MDMA's effects are not even all shared with other serotonin releasers such as fenfluoramine or MDAI. And Prozac's effects differ somewhat from other SSRIs too.

The neurotransmitters and receptors in the brain are not a set of dials where you can ratchet one and always expect a given psychological effect independent of the other receptors, or even independent of the way it's ratcheted, or even the timing of it. Also the effect of these drugs is highly dependent on context too. Believe it or not, MDMA can sometimes produce dysphoria and or unpleasant/unhappy mental state. It is uncommon, but I have seen it happen.

Sorry for the rant, it's just this type of oversimplification really strikes a nerve with me.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#192

Post by refurb »

krageon wrote: post #123
refurb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all liberal/progressive policies enacted across the West Coast - Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angelas. Progressives believe in restorative justice not prison or punishment. They believe that justice is actually righting the wrong that caused people to behave this way in the first place . "The infinite perfectability of man". That's a core progressive belief. Thus they "catch and release" for non-vi…

> Suffice to say the experiment has failed entirely. You've described the justice systems of modern progressive countries and what would you know, they work fine. The US needs a firm hand because it's culturally savage. Folks think about themselves and corporate "culture" is enshrined as something good and expected. Everyone sees the exploitation of other human beings and denigration everywhere, is it any surprise th…

No.

The people I know in progressive countries are shocked at the rampant violence that is tolerated and no prosecuted and punished in the US. It wouldn’t be tolerated in their countries.

Hell, the lefties I know in Europe look at the West Coast of the US and ask “what the fuck are you doing?”

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#193

Post by refurb »

SpodGaju wrote: post #154
refurb wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far the “fixes” for capitalism have all made things worse. But no doubt the next idea we try will fix things!

FDR saved capitalism. There is no fixing capitalism since exploitation is necessary for its existence.

FDR got his pee-pee slapped down for trying to do a run around on the constitution.

But you keep working on your anarchistic utopia while the rest of get “exploited” and pay taxes that actually support the people who you claim to care about.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#194

Post by redundantly »

SpodGaju wrote: post #181
striking wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been talking nicely about this stuff for years, it does not matter because the corporate propaganda for these meds is too powerful, so what you hear is a normal human response; frustration. I hear you, but you're not going to change minds with this kind of talk either. Sorry this has affected your life and those of your loved ones in the way that it has, but it's not helping your case. I wish you had include…

I was nice for 25 years. It didn’t change minds. Being nice doesn’t change their mind and neither does being angry. I’m just frustrated and I don’t care anymore. There’s too much money involved in all this for people to change their minds. This information about the effectiveness of Prozac and most anti-depressants has been out for over 12 years now. What good is it for me to site this information? No one cares. And…

> I’m just frustrated and I don’t care anymore.

You clearly do care. Otherwise you wouldn't have been so actively involved in the comments here.

Your argumentative, dismissive, downright rude attitude does more harm than good. Perhaps take a step back and think on things for a while before returning to discussions like this.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#195

Post by SpodGaju »

redundantly wrote: post #194
SpodGaju wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was nice for 25 years. It didn’t change minds. Being nice doesn’t change their mind and neither does being angry. I’m just frustrated and I don’t care anymore. There’s too much money involved in all this for people to change their minds. This information about the effectiveness of Prozac and most anti-depressants has been out for over 12 years now. What good is it for me to site this information? No one cares. And…

> I’m just frustrated and I don’t care anymore. You clearly do care. Otherwise you wouldn't have been so actively involved in the comments here. Your argumentative, dismissive, downright rude attitude does more harm than good. Perhaps take a step back and think on things for a while before returning to discussions like this.

I meant I don’t care what people think of how I write or speak. I don’t care about being nice. My frustration stems from me caring about people. And caring about people who are being mistreated by doctors.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#196

Post by nkozyra »

refurb wrote: post #82
nkozyra wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me that none* of these are "liberal policies" but rather realities that arose in a few West Coast liberal cities that simply couldn't handle the influx of people who came to SF, Portland, Seattle. * Perhaps no bail, although I think in isolation that's unlikely to be an issue These areas are always unique because transient and the homeless can live with some degree of year round comfort, so they will be na…

These are all liberal/progressive policies enacted across the West Coast - Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angelas. Progressives believe in restorative justice not prison or punishment. They believe that justice is actually righting the wrong that caused people to behave this way in the first place . "The infinite perfectability of man". That's a core progressive belief. Thus they "catch and release" for non-vi…

> Progressives believe in restorative justice not prison or punishment.

I think this is a dramatic misrepresentation. The west Coast cities you're referencing are making these decisions because practically speaking they do not have the resources to deal with what's happening in their cities.

These things aren't happening in other "liberal" cities because they don't have those policies. I think you're confusing the egg for the chicken.

Why is the same thing not happening en masse in Austin, in NYC, in Boston, in Atlanta, in DC, in Tampa? These are liberal cities.

The answer is the underlying problem is bigger than liberalism.

Justice reform has been desperately needed for decades, but that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is underfunded cities being overwhelmed and largely giving up.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#197

Post by SpodGaju »

noduerme wrote: post #186
SpodGaju wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bit of carrot and stick. The subtle psychology exposed in this sentence. You say you are an anarchist but here you are wanting to control others. You think you are smarter than these suffering people and will treat them like dogs with a treat to get them to do what you want. > It's about handling their problems, as I have had to handle my own. Again, you remain the individual. You think if everyone "lived like you"…

>> You say you are an anarchist but here you are wanting to control others. No, I used to be an anarchist. Now I'm living in an anarchic state and dealing with it pragmatically. There's nothing about individualist anarchism that says you can't attempt to moderate the behavior of other people around you, btw. >> Not everyone can handle their own problems and some peoples problems are bigger and more complicated than y…

So may be the problem is you never understood Anarchism. Because what’s happening in Portland is nothing close to Anarchism. It’s anarchy, with a small a. Now I guess you would call yourself an anarcho capitalist? Please don’t get me started….

You got greedy, that’s all that happened. It’s nothing complicated. You LARPed an anarchist when you were a kid, you traveled around, then somehow made some money, and you were able to end up buying a house in Portland. And now, the very system you used to make that money is destroying Portland and you’re complaining about the people? I get complaining about the government, but you’re putting all this on the people? Do you think people are kids wanna grow up to be addicted to drugs?

Portland didn’t fail because the culture changed, Portland changed because of housing speculation and housing investments and a housing bubble. Portland’s failing because of capitalism.

And this is the reason why I said look in the mirror.

And you don’t have to invade country to instigate a war.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#198

Post by standardUser »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #190
standardUser wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can see how the War on Drugs is not a viable solution, and you can see how the half-assed, semi-decriminalized mess we have in some cities is not a viable solution. But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people might be a viable solution? Either way, we're gonna keep spending untold billions on this problem. I'd like to stop throwing mon…

> But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people Oh, we can spend an unlimited amount of helping people and it only lasts until they get out and get their next fix. How do you help people that don't really want help? And all of the "help" they want just goes to enabling the destructive behavior, the money we throw at the problem right now just a…

You seem to have a very narrow and frankly uninformed opinion on addiction. It's unlikely you can be convinced that spending billions to arrest and imprison druggies is worse than spending the exact same billions to provide services and support if your beginning assumption is that addicts are lost causes.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#199

Post by SpodGaju »

refurb wrote: post #193
SpodGaju wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FDR saved capitalism. There is no fixing capitalism since exploitation is necessary for its existence.

FDR got his pee-pee slapped down for trying to do a run around on the constitution. But you keep working on your anarchistic utopia while the rest of get “exploited” and pay taxes that actually support the people who you claim to care about.

you know I can hold two thoughts in my head at the same time. I can be appreciative of taxes and the system that helps support others who are in need, and I can at the same time advocate for a system that doesn’t create peoples destitution.

I know, change is hard.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#200

Post by SpodGaju »

rndphs wrote: post #191
SpodGaju wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it works more quickly. That’s the only difference. And it is more like the SNRIs, like cymbalta with some effect or encouraging the release of catecholamines. But the effect is the same, more neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft. People abuse Prozac as well if that given you a clue on their similarities. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8093133/ https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.150.12....

As someone who has spent a lot of time reading the science of these chemicals, as well as their cultural impact and the experiences of people that I know and have talked to, as well as many experiences I have read about online. I can say that this is such a bad take that it's almost funny. It's like saying that a helicopter and a blender are the same device because they both have spinning blades. These two substances…

You want to see funny? You said:

> One of the main theories on the action of MDMA involves the sudden serotonin release inhibiting the amygdala and thus reducing fear response. Prozac certainly does not do this.

{cough}

Fluoxetine Facilitates Fear Extinction Through Amygdala Endocannabinoids

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4832021/

Chronic fluoxetine prevents fear memory generalization and enhances subsequent extinction by remodeling hippocampal dendritic spines and slowing down systems consolidation

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0371-3

Serotonin-2C receptors in the basolateral nucleus of the amygdala mediate the anxiogenic effect of acute imipramine and fluoxetine administration

https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/3/389/720875?login=...

You read some articles. That is not enough. You are being duped by more pharmaceutical company propaganda.

Have you ever ask yourself why they don’t investigate the reason people are not producing enough serotonin? Or white people lack serotonin?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337390/

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