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California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

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Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#181

Post by SpodGaju »

striking wrote: post #173
SpodGaju wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not care if people take me seriously, I care if they take the facts seriously. I know I know more about psychopharmacology than the majority of people on HN. I do not need to prove that to anyone. I have been talking nicely about this stuff for years, it does not matter because the corporate propaganda for these meds is too powerful, so what you hear is a normal human response; frustration. I do not think most p…

> I have been talking nicely about this stuff for years, it does not matter because the corporate propaganda for these meds is too powerful, so what you hear is a normal human response; frustration. I hear you, but you're not going to change minds with this kind of talk either. Sorry this has affected your life and those of your loved ones in the way that it has, but it's not helping your case. I wish you had include…

I was nice for 25 years. It didn’t change minds. Being nice doesn’t change their mind and neither does being angry. I’m just frustrated and I don’t care anymore. There’s too much money involved in all this for people to change their minds.

This information about the effectiveness of Prozac and most anti-depressants has been out for over 12 years now. What good is it for me to site this information? No one cares. And let’s see if more people started caring, don’t you think the interest, the money interest in these drugs will come back full force?

And whatever about references, references don’t change peoples minds either. Did you just see what happen with Covid? You can show people proof and fax all you want but everyone is in their own individual cult now.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#182

Post by pmoriarty »

csnover wrote: post #179
BossingAround wrote: post #24

If you're interested in MDMA sessions, and specifically MAPS (the pharma company that runs the trials), you might want to listen to the Cover story podcast, which deals with the MDMA/psylocybin culture of California as well as these trials. The first episode is at [1], the first episode dealing with maps is at [2]. These rape allegations are highly disconcerting and disheartening. [1] https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/c…

Since I listened to Cover Story recently, it was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this on the front page. I’m curious to hear from you and others who listened to the podcast about your impressions, because something felt really off to me about it. I feel this way because of how the presenters initially introduced themselves as very pro-psychedelic, then over the course of the series made what seemed to be…

We're starting to see the beginning of the backlash that the psychedelic community has been dreading since the start of the so-called Psychedelic Renaissance about a decade ago.

Everyone in the field knows that there'll inevitably be some adverse effects among some (as far as we know, small minority) of participants in these studies and users of psychedelics as a whole. We also know that both the media and many media consumers love sensationalism and mud-throwing, whatever the facts may be.

So far the overwhelming majority of psychedelic studies have been enormously positive, but we also know that can't last forever and realistically speaking there are bound to be some negative effects. This was crystal clear long before the Psychedelic Renaissance even started.

We've been lucky that since the beginning of the Psychedelic Renaissance the media attention has been almost completely positive and curious. But that too will likely change. These Cover Story podcasts are a recent example of the start of this change.

The question is whether such negative media attention will derail the Psychelic Renaissance and whether we'll go back to the dark ages of complete prohibition and mainstream terror at the prospect of using psychedelics.

At this point that doesn't seem likely, and stories like this will probably just cause the scientists and organizations involved to get more serious about safety and the general public to stop (erroneously) regarding psychedelics and the people involved in the scene as panaceas that can do no wrong.

At the same time, I don't think we're at the peak of the hype curve, and as more people try psychedelics there'll be a lot more influencers and true believers who'll hype them to the sky. We might even get another Timothy Leary or Ken Kesey.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#183

Post by pmoriarty »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #175
standardUser wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money we spend to try (and fail) to stop drug production, trafficking, sale and use could instead be used to help cover the obviously colossal, multi-generational shortfall we have on mental health and addiction spending. Not to mention revenue raised from taxes. Maybe there should be exceptions made for exceptionally deadly and addictive dugs, like fentanyl.

That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them. Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (b…

"Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well."

The question is: what's the alternative to allowing drug abuse?

We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their families, and (as knock-on effects) the rest of society.

The pessimist in me thinks it'll just continue, despite being so detrimental to our society as a whole, but there are signs (like the success of cannabis legalization, and the ongoing Psychedelic Renaissance) that we may be moving towards a more constructive future where people who need help aren't treated like criminals and attacked.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#184

Post by LocalH »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #106
LocalH wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about MDMA is that it causes your brain to dump your serotonin reserves into your brain all at once. Doing that too often, without letting your serotonin rebuild, can cause serotonin syndrome. I think psychedelics are safer in that regard. Nobody in the history of humanity has ever physically done "too much acid". Even some people who ingested tens of thousands of micrograms (thinking they were snorting cok…

> Doing that too often, without letting your serotonin rebuild, can cause serotonin syndrome. Serotonin syndrome is when you have too much serotonin, not too little.

I apologize for my miswording. Nonetheless, overuse of MDMA can indeed result in serotonin syndrome.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#185

Post by SpodGaju »

pmoriarty wrote: post #177
SpodGaju wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What absolute? That MDMA increases serotonin in the synaptic cleft just like prozac?

If "All [MDMA] does is artificially increase serotonin.... just like prozac" then Prozac and MDMA would have the same effect. But they have radically different effects, so they must do at least something differently, despite sharing some similarities.

Yes, it works more quickly. That’s the only difference. And it is more like the SNRIs, like cymbalta with some effect or encouraging the release of catecholamines.

But the effect is the same, more neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft.

People abuse Prozac as well if that given you a clue on their similarities.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8093133/

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.150.12....

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#186

Post by noduerme »

SpodGaju wrote: post #110
noduerme wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I was not a savage. And you're not a savage. You're right, the world will act the way they're treated. I try to act kindly when possible. What's wrong with beering the homeless kids? But I don't think much of them. This ain't about me being "good". It's about my right to exist and work and live whether some 18 year old is having a bad family life or not. It's about handling their problems, as I have had to handle…

> Bit of carrot and stick. The subtle psychology exposed in this sentence. You say you are an anarchist but here you are wanting to control others. You think you are smarter than these suffering people and will treat them like dogs with a treat to get them to do what you want. > It's about handling their problems, as I have had to handle my own. Again, you remain the individual. You think if everyone "lived like you"…

>> You say you are an anarchist but here you are wanting to control others.

No, I used to be an anarchist. Now I'm living in an anarchic state and dealing with it pragmatically. There's nothing about individualist anarchism that says you can't attempt to moderate the behavior of other people around you, btw.

>> Not everyone can handle their own problems and some peoples problems are bigger and more complicated than yours were.

You just implied I had no right to attempt to affect other people's behavior. But somehow it's still supposed to be my responsibility to pay for their bad decisions in life? How's that?

>> no one is protesting the U.S. involvement in the war in Ukraine

We didn't invade Ukraine. We don't have troops there. Not all things are equal.

>>If you want to know why Portland is failing, look in the mirror.

Oh bullshit. Portland's failing because it stopped being a weird, Amsterdam-like open-minded, leftish libertarian blue collar town, and started being a destination for intolerant, spoiled children LARPing as anarchists and destroying public safety in the name of an incoherent political agenda.

Then again, my definition of "not failing" might be different than yours. I think not failing would be downtown reopening, not having trash amd vermin all over the streets, not hearing gunshots all night, and people not having to worry about stray bullets coming through their walls. I bet you think not failing would mean giving more free shit away to homeless drug addicts who ride in from out of town. But that's not helping anyone who lives here, and it's not helping it not to fail.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#187

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pmoriarty wrote: post #183
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them. Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (b…

"Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well." The question is: what's the alternative to allowing drug abuse? We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their fam…

> We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their families, and (as knock-on effects) the rest of society.

When I was younger, I used to think the war on drugs was a dismal failure, but now seeing what happens when decriminalization is gone with instead, with junkies on the street camping in parks leaving their needles everywhere and the pervasive burnt peanut butter smell from smoking fentanyl on the buses. It might have just been the best of a bunch of bad solutions.

But I get that not all drugs are fentanyl or heroin, I'm totally ok with marijuana legalization. Also, since it is decriminalized in our city and not other places in our region, we probably attract much more of the problem just because our cops don't harass users or dealers.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#188

Post by standardUser »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #187
pmoriarty wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well." The question is: what's the alternative to allowing drug abuse? We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their fam…

> We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their families, and (as knock-on effects) the rest of society. When I was younger, I used to think the war on drugs was a dismal failure, but now seeing what happens when decriminalization is gone with instead, with junkies on the street camping in parks leaving their needles everywhere and the pervasive burnt peanut…

So you can see how the War on Drugs is not a viable solution, and you can see how the half-assed, semi-decriminalized mess we have in some cities is not a viable solution. But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people might be a viable solution?

Either way, we're gonna keep spending untold billions on this problem. I'd like to stop throwing money at policies that destroy lives, violate civil liberties and have been proven by decades of evidence to be infective.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#189

Post by pmoriarty »

SpodGaju wrote: post #185
pmoriarty wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "All [MDMA] does is artificially increase serotonin.... just like prozac" then Prozac and MDMA would have the same effect. But they have radically different effects, so they must do at least something differently, despite sharing some similarities.

Yes, it works more quickly. That’s the only difference. And it is more like the SNRIs, like cymbalta with some effect or encouraging the release of catecholamines. But the effect is the same, more neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft. People abuse Prozac as well if that given you a clue on their similarities. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8093133/ https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.150.12....

"it works more quickly. That’s the only difference"

I'd like to see a paper from a reputable journal saying that MDMA is just a quicker working version of Prozac.

Re: California study begins screening for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD

#190

Post by seanmcdirmid »

standardUser wrote: post #188
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know the War no Drugs is a dismal failure that hurts most the people who need help the most, and their families, and (as knock-on effects) the rest of society. When I was younger, I used to think the war on drugs was a dismal failure, but now seeing what happens when decriminalization is gone with instead, with junkies on the street camping in parks leaving their needles everywhere and the pervasive burnt peanut…

So you can see how the War on Drugs is not a viable solution, and you can see how the half-assed, semi-decriminalized mess we have in some cities is not a viable solution. But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people might be a viable solution? Either way, we're gonna keep spending untold billions on this problem. I'd like to stop throwing mon…

> But you can't see how proactively spending all of this money helping people instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people

Oh, we can spend an unlimited amount of helping people and it only lasts until they get out and get their next fix. How do you help people that don't really want help? And all of the "help" they want just goes to enabling the destructive behavior, the money we throw at the problem right now just allow them to do more drugs.

> instead of marginalizing/imprisoning people might be a viable solution?

So? The other approach is just enabling their behavior with compassion: let's make sure they have housing and open shelters so they can don't die while continuing to do their drugs? We are already spending untold billions on that, meanwhile ignoring petty property crimes (because junkies need legos for what?), and we only go OMG when they bash some poor girl's head in with a baseball bat because they are having a crisis.

Why have any sympathy for those people at all? So we are already spending around $60k/year/person on these people, how much higher do you want our one city to go? $200k/year? $1 million/year? How do you help people who don't really want help but will gladly take your money? Supply of those needing help (even if they just want drugs) is also basically unlimited since it is more of a national problem, while big cities are expected to provide compassion on their own.

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