The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices • Hacker News Board

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#361

Post by jabroni_salad » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

lukebuehler wrote: post #200

incomingpain wrote: post #186

A ton of businesses are dealing with a bad hand right now. They know they cant successfully force everyone back to the office. If news goes out about X entity is going back to the office. Recruiters go to linkedin and reach out to all of those people and offer them work from home and a raise. Flipside, if you dont go back to the office. What are going doing holding so much $ and costs for nothing? Everyone who realiz…

> How long until climate change or expensive gasoline forces people to just stay home?? Yes, this is just the beginning of the end. I would even say this is the beginning of the end for cities as we know them. I think 80-90% of all white collar jobs will leave cities and suburbia. This will really change the dynamics.

>will leave cities

wouldn't that be the opposite? Where I live right now, the nearest grocery store is in the next town over and there is zero public infrastructure to get there. There is no uber or taxi or bus. You just don't live here without a car, period.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#362

Post by packetlost » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:20 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #316

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also a cultural thing. US commute is particularly bad, I work from home and been doing it on and off for the past 20 years. My commute has never been longer than 20 minutes total. I now live 5 minutes walk away from my office, I'm not going, but if I had to I would walk there and have a very nice breakfast in some bar on the road there. One thing that's always overlooked is how much WFH is selecting people who a…

> it's also a cultural thing Good places to see this are New York and New Orleans. New Orleans' French and Spanish quarters have residences on top of business concerns. We Americans, on the other hand, built separate residential and commercial neighborhoods with a train connecting the two. Likewise for Manhattan. Dutch-settled areas have homes on top of shops. This pattern continues for a bit under the British, but c…

I'm not sure this is a cultural divide so much as a political city planning one, at least today. Mixed-use zoning is a debated topic in my city. That being said, I absolutely despise the separate residential/commercial zoning and how spread out things are here (mostly because of individual car-culture).

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#363

Post by musingsole » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #315

rickspencer3 wrote: post #243

I have a cynical view about this, but also expect it all to come out in the wash over time. My cynical view is that some older executives are, indeed, not as effective in remote companies and younger ones, because they have no practice running remote companies and haven't adapted. Additionally, many senior and middle managers never figured out how to assess and reward actual productivity on their teams, so relied on…

Bullseye. The company I work for has a large home office, plus a satellite office tower in the same city. Plus a satellite office in a second city. So even before COVID, we were working with users remotely. We own all three buildings and land, and have always been proud of that for some reason. Very emotionally invested in the Home office. Obviously COVID changed all that and exposed the opposition to remote work as…

> We own all three buildings and land, and have always been proud of that for some reason

Many businesses -- despite whatever their mission statement may be -- are not-so-thinly veiled real estate vehicles. Even businesses with a healthy income from whatever good or service they provide will often have another 25%+ in income from real estate gains. McDonald's is probably a good example of this.

I learned this pitching a business plan where an executive thought the "occupant mission" was compelling, but that we needed more expertise on the types of properties we could add value to.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#364

Post by otoburb » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

nobleach wrote: post #353

01100011 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WFH is selecting people who already have a tendency to stay home and not socialize much at work. Doesn't engineering in general select for these personality traits?

This has been my observation over the last 20 years. I truly enjoy socializing and collaborating in person. I usually worked from home once or twice a week before the pandemic. It was a fantastic convenience as I lived an hour from my office. Once the pandemic hit we were fully remote. At first I thought, "see? we're more productive, this is truly better". As time wore on, I can see why a hybrid approach might be a b…

>>I feel our product suffers due to lack of collaboration.

Is there a way to measure the loss in productivity or product quality?

>>I have never seen a more disengaged engineering staff.

How does the perceived lack of engagement by your team members (by choice, for the most part) impact the mystical, (un)measurable "collaboration" factor?

It might help managers and/or senior leadership to better argue points for hybrid in-office arrangements if data points could be brought to bear to counteract the very real benefits (for some) of WFH combined with varying individual social preferences.

The suggestions in the last paragraph of the article are so simple to articulate, yet difficult for (especially lder) managers across most levels to crisply quantify.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#365

Post by boh » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

osigurdson wrote: post #258

I don't think there is anything else more illogical in modern society than waking up in building A, hopping in a car and fighting traffic for an hour to get to building B just to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours (perhaps with a few minimally productive meetings here and there), then commute back to building A 8 hours later. Building B sits empty for 16 hours a day while Building A sits empty for 10 with both be…

If the environmental impact is the only relevant factor for human interaction, then yes you're right. However society doesn't abide by isolation.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#366

Post by spaniard89277 » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

cgio wrote: post #211

onion2k wrote: post #75

Employees need to be on site, we’re told, because collaborating with one another has been harder to do when everyone is working from separate locations. I think this is true, but only if the main part of your job is collaborating eg talking to other people to reach a consensus. That is easier face to face. The problem is that only higher up management roles are actually like that. Lower down the tree people are expec…

Lower down the tree people want to get promotions and that transition won’t happen abruptly but gradually. I agree with the overall sentiment, though. My experience is 80% of time in office on zoom or hybrid zoom/in person meetings, which does make it purely only worth it for the 20% impromptu discussions. The result is even worse exhaustion not only from commute but also from completely drowning the schedule to mana…

Satellite offices seems a good idea, if it's cheaper for the company.

In the case of my job, they could have maybe 20? for the price they're paying now.

But I wouldn't go anyway. Maybe once a month or every six weeks or so. Just because there will be people who prefers an office and to keep up with their faces, but I have no business there.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#367

Post by dljsjr » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

fluoridation wrote: post #359

dljsjr wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people don't have a choice, in Florida during the summer time if you aren't running your AC full-time the humidity and heat will ruin your home. It stays in the 80's even overnight (both temp. Fº and Relative Humidity %).

Sounds similar to the climate here in Buenos Aires, maybe slightly warmer. To my knowledge people generally don't keep AC's running when they're not around, in the summer. I've never heard of a building being ruined by environmental humidity.

Black mold is a massive issue in Florida.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#368

Post by adamsmith143 » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #303

osigurdson wrote: post #258

I don't think there is anything else more illogical in modern society than waking up in building A, hopping in a car and fighting traffic for an hour to get to building B just to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours (perhaps with a few minimally productive meetings here and there), then commute back to building A 8 hours later. Building B sits empty for 16 hours a day while Building A sits empty for 10 with both be…

it's also a cultural thing. US commute is particularly bad, I work from home and been doing it on and off for the past 20 years. My commute has never been longer than 20 minutes total. I now live 5 minutes walk away from my office, I'm not going, but if I had to I would walk there and have a very nice breakfast in some bar on the road there. One thing that's always overlooked is how much WFH is selecting people who a…

>Basically the point is that many people find meaning and purpose in their jobs, if you remove the "purpose" (getting dressed, going out, meeting other people, sharing work experiences with them) it simply becomes a tedious activity to them that fulfills none of their needs.

If the only purpose you have in a job is to put on uncomfortable clothes and socialize I think we can go ahead and eliminate that job.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#369

Post by v-erne » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

ricardobayes wrote: post #256

v-erne wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard this argument against WFH many times over. Especially from my relatives that work in bullshit jobs (cough ... investment banking ... cough). I wonder if people that brings up this understand what they are really saying. Because it's not like WFH reduces the amount of promotion that goes around. Its just have the potential of reallocating it differently. And this means that they are afraid that they will…

As I work for a company that was founded during the pandemic, it's 100% remote in the truest meaning of the word. I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. I think for those jobs, both camps are right. To say WFH was just a temporary measure is just as valid to say you like working from home so much now you want that.

>> I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote.

True, I was not talking about true remote job in truly remote company - if there are no possibility for in personal meeting than the power dynamic changes and the play ground is leveled for all players.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#370

Post by KineticLensman » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #196

endymi0n wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say it with the words of my first boss that stuck with me: "Love it, change it or leave it. No amount of complaining will ever do anything else than paint you as a naysayer." Was a hard pill to swallow, but my own experience proved me again and again he was spot on.

I'm starting to doubt this advice. I'm a "change it" sort of personality by nature - a reformer. When faced with these 3 options, I've chosen "change it" many times. And more often than not, I've found myself in a political crossfire, with new unwelcome knowledge of the various forces (typically some combination of self interest, ego, and turf-guarding) that are responsible for the thing I'm trying to change. My curr…

> If I'm to vote for "change", I should be prepared to deal with the unholy mess. It doesn't matter that I don't see it, it's out there somewhere.

Yes. This is the old point about the Serenity 'prayer': grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can; And wisdom to know the difference. Or, as soldiers say more succinctly, "Pick your battles".

I've slowly internalised this over the years. It also applies on a micro-level: when reviewing someone else's work, if something that isn't critical actually gets the job done, just go with it, unless there is an actual problem with an obvious solution that you can suggest. Don't complain just because something is done differently to how you would do it.

The point about Unknown Unknowns is also totally relevant. And cans-of-worms. You really must be very confident you are right before opening them.