The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices • Hacker News Board

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#251

Post by revolvingocelot » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:51 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #196

endymi0n wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say it with the words of my first boss that stuck with me: "Love it, change it or leave it. No amount of complaining will ever do anything else than paint you as a naysayer." Was a hard pill to swallow, but my own experience proved me again and again he was spot on.

I'm starting to doubt this advice. I'm a "change it" sort of personality by nature - a reformer. When faced with these 3 options, I've chosen "change it" many times. And more often than not, I've found myself in a political crossfire, with new unwelcome knowledge of the various forces (typically some combination of self interest, ego, and turf-guarding) that are responsible for the thing I'm trying to change. My curr…

Worse yet, IME, being a keen participant in HN's technical side almost precludes one's ability to overcome the other players, those who fight in the name of some combination of self interest, ego, and turf-guarding.

To vanquish these, in the name of The Right Way, one ultimately must engage them in social combat, whether by proxy or directly. And they're better at it than you are. Nerds may be clever, and they may actually be right, but the other players are usually more convincing. And I don't mean merely argumentatively.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#252

Post by Timpy » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:51 PM UTC

Before the pandemic I was working in an office with a 45 min / 1 hour commute one way with lots of traffic. My tiny little office shared a wall with my senior dev, I literally couldn't be closer to him, and we still only communicated over Teams. If it weren't for passing people on the way to get coffee I could go an entire day without speaking to anyone except via Teams. The owner loved the office but he showed up around 10am-ish or whenever he felt like it, and he could afford a place nearby. No wonder there's a dramatic disconnect between his experience and mine. Every day that I wasn't needed for some in person meeting (most days) I had an extremely bitter, traffic-filled drive home.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#253

Post by Tade0 » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:51 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #75

Employees need to be on site, we’re told, because collaborating with one another has been harder to do when everyone is working from separate locations. I think this is true, but only if the main part of your job is collaborating eg talking to other people to reach a consensus. That is easier face to face. The problem is that only higher up management roles are actually like that. Lower down the tree people are expec…

> When higher ups push for a return to offices to make collaborating easier what they actually mean is to make their jobs easier, at the expense of everyone else.

The other day my manager said that he misses coming to the office because back then if he wanted something he could just come over and ask.

Meanwhile I've specifically chosen to work remotely so as to not be bothered by anyone when I need to focus.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#254

Post by i_love_music » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:52 PM UTC

mathieuh wrote: post #128

kamaal wrote: post #65

There is a big reason to Work from office, apart from the merits of the case like close collaboration, productivity et al. Most important of all is being able to see your manager on a day to day basis, a lot of people don't really understand how important seeing your bosses on a day to day basis can be to their careers. Most people have a problem of neglecting what isn't front of them, it's not malice or anything its…

Bear in mind that not everyone is particularly career-focused. I'm perfectly happy getting "meets expectations" at annual reviews, and if I'm not happy with the pay rise (as happened to me last week), I'm happy looking for another job to get the bump I want. People who bother to go on HN probably skew more towards career-focused than not, but plenty of people are very happy doing the work given to them and no more.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I love this community but sometimes it bums me out. If work is what truly makes people happen, then awesome, have at it. Personally, I get some but not all of self-fulfillment out of it. I use the paycheck to do the things I actually care about.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#255

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:52 PM UTC

rockyj wrote: post #205

ajdegol wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy goes into a bar in Mexico and there’s a dog lying in the corner, every so often the dog whimpers and whines a little. The guy asks the barman “what’s up with that dog?” And the barman said “oh, he’s probably lying on a nail.” After a few more minutes and another set of whines, the guy asks the barman “so why doesn’t he move?” And the barman says “it probably doesn’t hurt enough for him to get up.”

It is not so easy. Changing jobs cannot be always the answer. In Europe there are not many "remote friendly" companies and also it's not that you will get a 20% pay rise every time you switch. On top, it is extremely hard to find software development jobs that pay around or above 100K. Most jobs are around 60-80K. A job change can also mean - inheriting someone else's problematic code base, new office politics and co…

>It is not so easy. Changing jobs cannot be always the answer.

This. Everything you said is true about most of Europe, and even more so outside of major tech hubs.

Companies call the shots and employees have to follow if they want to stay employed, because there are no good alternatives to go to, when all companies just act the same and pay the same. And most companies here don't give a damn about what their employees actually want and presume they can bait you with a +10% salary increase but exact same inflexibility, toxic environment and management practices. Good luck with that.

Plus, interviewing and changing jobs in the tech world is a monumental effort, taking both time and a mental toll after several rounds of interviews with several companies, on top of your regular job, time that could have went into hobbies, dating, socializing, travelling, cooking, etc., so there's a lost opportunities cost associated with the job hunt.

I've been interviewing around for about 4 months so far, to hopefully change to a better , less stressful tech job, and I'm already completely exhausted from all the "complete our 20-questions, 6 page HR online form about yourself, before you can submit your application, because our time is more valuable than yours", "solve this week long take home test, and when you're done, we'll let you know that unfortunately this position has already been filled", "there will be several rounds of interviews after wich we'll just ghost you, because f*ck you", "you didn't sound passionate enough about our company's products in your cover letter", etc. And, apparently there's a labor shortage. Yeah ... right.

God, I'm so exhausted from all this, some days I just can't get out of bed anymore and sit there wishing I get hit by lightning, or die in my sleep and end my misery.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#256

Post by ricardobayes » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:52 PM UTC

v-erne wrote: post #215

kamaal wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many people don't realise this. You haven't seen your cousin or a friend for a while? What is your perception of them now? I am sure all that Facebook liking and commenting hasn't given you a clue of what they are now, and more importantly even the perception of them from when you last had a chance to see them often has now been long forgotten/hazy. The facts here are anybody you don't see often, you don't know th…

I have heard this argument against WFH many times over. Especially from my relatives that work in bullshit jobs (cough ... investment banking ... cough). I wonder if people that brings up this understand what they are really saying. Because it's not like WFH reduces the amount of promotion that goes around. Its just have the potential of reallocating it differently. And this means that they are afraid that they will…

As I work for a company that was founded during the pandemic, it's 100% remote in the truest meaning of the word. I never even considered there might be a different perception for 'WFH' which were in-person jobs that turned remote. I think for those jobs, both camps are right. To say WFH was just a temporary measure is just as valid to say you like working from home so much now you want that.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#257

Post by morsch » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:53 PM UTC

slategruen wrote: post #60

A lot of the sentiments seem to resent commuting a lot? Perhaps most of them works in the US and primarily use cars as a mode of transportation?

I commute five minutes by foot. I'd still rather work from home. And I'm gonna, one way or another.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#258

Post by osigurdson » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:54 PM UTC

I don't think there is anything else more illogical in modern society than waking up in building A, hopping in a car and fighting traffic for an hour to get to building B just to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours (perhaps with a few minimally productive meetings here and there), then commute back to building A 8 hours later.

Building B sits empty for 16 hours a day while Building A sits empty for 10 with both being heated/cooled for 24 hours. The employee wastes 2 of their 16 available waking hours in the non-productive commute while incurring significant financial costs (lease/insurance/fuel/energy) in order to support this patently absurd activity. Similarly the employer wastes time and energy negotiating leases, re-arranging offices, purchasing AV equipment for meeting rooms in building B, etc.,etc., in addition to paying the likely enormously expensive lease itself.

The impacts on the environment, the number of hours of human life wasted in commute, the pointless buildings and associated costs to employers as well as the public infrastructure to support it (roads, trains, busses, etc.) are all incredibly wasteful. Surely, all of this could only be justified if physical presence had a dramatic impact on productivity. Yet, we cannot tell one way or the other if it actually improves outcomes.

Let's face it, it's dumb.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#259

Post by underdeserver » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #75

Employees need to be on site, we’re told, because collaborating with one another has been harder to do when everyone is working from separate locations. I think this is true, but only if the main part of your job is collaborating eg talking to other people to reach a consensus. That is easier face to face. The problem is that only higher up management roles are actually like that. Lower down the tree people are expec…

I strongly disagree. I find that talking to other people is required at every single level.

Junior engineers need mentoring, need to talk to other people to understand what's asked of them.

Mid-level engineers/ICs need to talk to other people to understand the architecture design, collaborate with other mid-level engineers, and push back or report back issues that arise during the work.

Seniors and up need it for design reviews and achieving consensus.

Critically, to advance in your career, you need to start participating in conversations with the next stages. All of this is easier face to face.

Re: The worst part of working from home is now haunting reopened offices

#260

Post by acdha » Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #210

gonzo41 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually pretty easy to fire people in government jobs. The problem is its uncomfortable to have hard conversations. Most government jobs are so far away form service delivery that they are very abstract. This makes the impact of lazy people seem insignificant. However, if you look at government with more of a service delivery focus, think FEMA. You wouldn't see many people who just laze about because the work i…

> It's actually pretty easy to fire people in government jobs I suppose it depends on the government, but my experience is that it’s extremely difficult to fire people. I spoke with HR at a US federal organization that said their termination rate is .1% of employees and half of those are during the 1-year probation period. That’s extremely low and I think an indicator of how hard it is to fire people in government. I…

What do you think the termination rate should be, and why?

One big confound to remember is that it’s generally hard to get US government jobs because a lot of work has been outsourced to contractors, so the federal workforce trends older and more experienced. That pool of people is less likely to be fired for cause in general.

When thinking about why you believe more people should be fired, consider the politics — both the general managerial class tendency to shift accountability to workers and the specific culture war points favored by people who oppose government regulation – and ask whether what you’re basing that on is fully in the worker’s responsibility. I’ve seen plenty of .gov inefficiency but an awful lot of that has been required by policy (not just agency, often by Congress) and underfunding. The latter often isn’t just a simple number being too low but also things like having money budgeted to contract out work but not to hire people to adequately supervise them. Very, very few situations have been as simple as “Fred chose not to do his job” without significant other factors contributing to the problem.

I’d also note that while I have seen a couple of cases like that, that’s less than I saw in .com or .edu and for exactly the same reason: they were high enough up the org chart and a buddy even higher up sheltered them. HR could have fired them if they weren’t being told not to.