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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#231

Post by caffeine »

opportune wrote: post #218
caffeine wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The no-test policy is espoused by two groups who find themselves to be unlikely allies: naive progressives and actual racists. The naive progressives think what you’d expect: “Minorities and poor people can’t possibly be expected to do well on anything objective, so it’s unfair to test them”. It is bigotry, but at least it’s well-meaning. The actual racists are more cynical: “I don’t want Yale to be 67% Asian.” Obvio…

There are other groups too. Like Big Rich Daddy who wants his kid to go to Yale as a legacy but he only has a 26 ACT and has only donated like $1m. When test scores are required, top schools basically have a “budget” of 25% of their student body they can admit with any score without it adversely affecting college rankings. Making tests optional makes it easier to admit more students that don’t “meet the bar” otherwis…

When I went to $(fancy school not quite Yale but like Yale), they were even more blatant - the admissions people just flat out stated they have a quota for legacies and they have different standards.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#232

Post by tharne »

sgustard wrote: post #187
tharne wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So much for that common, popular notion that standardized tests do not predict anything of value. To be fair, I don't think the debate was ever about the quality or predictive value of the tests. There is a small, but well-organized and vocal subset of the population that hates the idea of excellence and differentiation. They want, and have been quite successful in, the replacement of standards of excellence with v…

The MIT article literally says "diversity" is one of their goals. Seems like you're arguing against yourself.

> The MIT article literally says "diversity" is one of their goals. Seems like you're arguing against yourself.

Except no one goes to MIT because it's "diverse", whatever that even means anymore. They go there because it is one of the best schools in the world.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#233

Post by [deleted] »

david38 wrote: post #183
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

[deleted]

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#234

Post by hooande »

david38 wrote: post #183
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I live in a very rich town, like super rich. I work in tech so am rich by the standards of general population, but by the standards of Silicon Valley. My child did very well on the ACT. All she did was buy a $35 practice book, which almost anyone can do. Literally this was it. Furthermore, she doesn’t know of a single friend or acquaintance that hired a private tutor. All the nay-sayers belly-ache about this but for…

Do you honestly believe that if you were from a very poor town, poor by the standards of african american neighborhoods in Detroit, that giving your child a $35 practice book would have a similar outcome?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#235

Post by jvanderbot »

rg111 wrote: post #130

> as a result, not having SATs/ACT scores to consider tends to raise socioeconomic barriers to demonstrating readiness for our education It all come down to me to what this point touches. When you have a test, you have something definite to prepare for. Even if you do not have dedicated mentors or well-wishing, caring teachers, you simply know there is a test that significantly improves your chances for MIT. When you…

You don't put out fires by disabling smoke alarms. And you don't solve socioeconomic / class-related barriers by disabling their indicators.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#236

Post by MaximumYComb »

scarecrw wrote: post #198
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

> My understanding is that's what SAT/ACT were moving towards about 10 years ago, that it would be computerized and "everyone's test is personalized" by the elo system probing your exact knowledge level from a bank of questions with difficulty scores dynamically based on how "similar ranked" students performed on that question. That is indeed where they're moving. They've recently announced that the SAT will be trans…

I think that is great. Once you get past a certain threshold, the test loses prediction value. Giving the kids in the top 5% a way to differentiate is great.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#237

Post by icelancer »

Quite surprising that they went back on their policy, but it's a welcome change. Removing standardized tests and replacing them with more subjective methods necessarily reduces outcomes surrounding academic excellence, and almost always exacerbates socioeconomic/racial inequity (with a strong anti-Asian bias, as shown in almost all studies when test scores are blinded/dropped).

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#238

Post by hiepph »

neon_electro wrote: post #137
hiq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring Is there such a pushback? As in, is the percentage of the workforce refusing to take such tests increasing?

It very much depends on the style of coding test - personally, I'm more than happy to do take-home style tests where I prepare something in a matter of a few hours, but I can't stand "leetcode" interviews or anything where I'm pressured to produce in 30 minutes or less; perhaps that's because that's typically not how I work in the real world and in my experience, they do a really poor job of demonstrating my skill se…

I recently failed a CS coding test. I was asked to solve a problem in 10m. I solved it in 20m and was rejected. I came up with a solution and communicate it right from the start. My solution was totally clear and readable. I just needed time to warm up and attentive to my code. I love CS. I love solving problems and reading books about Algorithm and Data Structure. I implemented them from scratch as a hobby. But the interviewer guy is not caring about that and said process is process. I felt disappointed at first but felt lucky after that since I wouldn't want to work with those people in the future.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#239

Post by 8note »

bena wrote: post #142
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to take the ACT for people, they'd pay me in beer (which I wasn't old enough to buy for myself). You'd get ID'd at the entrance, but nobody kept track of whether the name on your test was the name on your ID, so you'd just take each other's tests. It might be harder now, I don't know.

But they also wouldn't be old enough to buy you beer. Unless you are suggesting adults would buy you beer for you to take the ACT on behalf of a minor they knew. Which seems odd.

Non-adults are capable of getting alcohol, without buying directly from a store.

Typically they know somebody who knows an adult that will to the transaction with the store and provide the id.

Otherwise, some stores accept good fake ids, or squint to believe that the person buying actually matches the picture on the card

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#240

Post by tzs »

jordanpg wrote: post #43

Part of the problem I see with standardized testing is that the stakes are so high. Some fraction of the people out there just get nervous or have a bad day. Nothing about these high pressure situations really reflects anything important in the real world. I'm a law student now. In law school, your entire grade usually comes from one 3-4 hour essay exam. Much depends on luck, how well you slept the night before, and…

> I'm a law student now. In law school, your entire grade usually comes from one 3-4 hour essay exam. Much depends on luck, how well you slept the night before, and how frantically you can type. It's absurd. It's been that way for some 100 years.

Well, not quite that way for 100 years. When I was in law school 30 years ago (University of Washington) it would for most people be "how frantically you can handwrite" rather than "how frantically you can type".

There was a room set aside for people who wanted to bring and use typewriters but it was fairly hard to actually find a typewriter that they would allow. By the early '90s even low end typewriters often had several lines of buffer memory and an LCD display so that you could store and edit text before printing it, and higher end models were essentially specialized laptops that only ran a word processor and a printer driver. At my school if it had two or more lines of text storage it was considered to be a word processor or computer and not allowed.

I had to drive all over Seattle before finding a place that still sold typewriters plain enough to be allowed.

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