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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#191

Post by femiagbabiaka »

Definitely for the best. Standardized testing was pretty much the only reason I and many other working class folks I know could get into good schools -- I was never going to do a million side activities, and my summers were spent working, not building my academic resume.

Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college, even prestigious ones, at all given how unnecessary they are for making people into productive and happy human beings. This change is significant but affects less than one percent of the population each year..

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#192

Post by ecshafer »

College Admissions in the US is broken. This is a great move at restoring normalcy though. The SAT or ACT are the best thing for leveling the playing field between the rich and the poor. If anything I would like to see more reliance on this.

If I had my way the US would model the college admissions process on the Chinese Gao Kao. Have everyone take the the exam, have students list their preference for university, then sort from top ranked to the bottom ranked filling open positions at universities. This is fair, the only bias is ability, and it removes all legacy, wealth and athletics factors.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#193

Post by jordanpg »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #162
jordanpg wrote: post #43

Part of the problem I see with standardized testing is that the stakes are so high. Some fraction of the people out there just get nervous or have a bad day. Nothing about these high pressure situations really reflects anything important in the real world. I'm a law student now. In law school, your entire grade usually comes from one 3-4 hour essay exam. Much depends on luck, how well you slept the night before, and…

> Nothing about these high pressure situations really reflects anything important in the real world. Then why do the rest scores correlate better with college performance than other factors? If SAT scores also correlate well with, say, income, would you then accept that they actually reflect something important in the real world?

I'm not saying that these tests are not effective predictors of something. In fact, I'm sure they are.

I'm saying that it's certain that they way they are administered leave a lot of people behind, and I don't think it has to be that way. There are many objections to these kinds of metrics, often involving disabilities or socioeconomic issues. I guess I'm just wondering out loud how much of that has to do with the physical way in which the tests are administered.

As to reflecting the real world, all I can do is point to my own experiences: military, academic, legal, and corporate, and say being good at high stakes, infrequent, timed, standardized tests is not very important in those contexts.

Here are 2 Malcolm Gladwell podcasts on the startling disconnect between the skills required to succeed on the LSAT and the skills required to succeed as a high-prestige lawyer:

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/puzzle-rush/

https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/the-tortoise-and-the-hare/

While the LSAT does predict success in those jobs, the skills needed to succeed on the LSAT have nothing to do with being a good Supreme Court clerk -- especially the going super fast part.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#194

Post by aatharuv »

xyst wrote: post #149

Quoted post unavailable.

The page states pretty much the opposite. If you read the link, they state how, amongst other things:

Good SAT scores can help find students from poorer high schools who didn't have the opportunity to take as many advanced classes in high school.

Also, to quote the paper "College admission protocols should attend to how social class is...encoded in non-numerical components of applications"

Like admissions essays touched up by educational counsellors, who can also get children of rich parents into "volunteering programs" that touch up experience, while poorer kids have to work after school.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#195

Post by dayvid »

LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7
paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I have a family friend who does consulting for rich kids w/ college admissions.

You basically have someone who's on the board of an elite university coaching kids on their essay, clueing them into extra-curriculars, etc. They get paid pretty well.

I also had a dinner conversation from a lady with two children in Ivy league universities who said she emphasized with the parents who went to jail for bribing schools to get their childrens admitted and would do it herself if her children couldn't get in the school. She also personally knows one of the people doing jail time for bribery.

I had basically no adult academic/university guidance growing up. I just liked reading books in the library and studying things I liked. I was able to receive a scholarship to my university through my SAT scores. I'm not sure how I would square up in the current academic environment when I see the sheer amount of parent involvement in the application process. I also went to a smaller university where the level of tactics and skullduggery is limited.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#196

Post by WalterBright »

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

The University of California commissioned a study to determine the predictive value of SATs for college success. A strong positive correlation was found. The test requirement was dropped anyway.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#197

Post by SamReidHughes »

Animats wrote: post #20

All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not…

Very few developers work in machine learning.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#198

Post by scarecrw »

paulmd wrote: post #21
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

> My understanding is that's what SAT/ACT were moving towards about 10 years ago, that it would be computerized and "everyone's test is personalized" by the elo system probing your exact knowledge level from a bank of questions with difficulty scores dynamically based on how "similar ranked" students performed on that question.

That is indeed where they're moving. They've recently announced that the SAT will be transitioning to a digital, adaptive test in the next 1-2 years. [1]

Notably, the upcoming iteration of the test will only be semi-adaptive, adjusting the version of the second half of the test based on your performance on the first half, rather than adapting to your performance on a question-by-question basis.

I suspect overall this will be an improvement in the accuracy of the results. As it stands, for students with a strong math background, a majority of the math questions on the current test are far too easy and cloud their results on the rest. With the recent removal of the CollegeBoard's math subject tests, high-level math students have very few opportunities to demonstrate their knowledge using a standardized metric.

[1]: https://newsroom.collegeboard.org/digital-sat-brings-student...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#199

Post by fhood »

TuringNYC wrote: post #179
paulmd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

>> I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. As i learned in college, the real "coaching" was rich parents getting rich kids more time on the SAT by getting psychiatric diagnostic classifications that give you more time. Time has been the real challenge on SATs for most people beyond a…

From my, albeit rather distant, recollection, if you desperately needed more time on the SAT you are probably already screwed.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#200

Post by [deleted] »

bmc7505 wrote: post #58
Animats wrote: post #20

All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics, as part of our General Institute Requirements. ... There is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive. For a period in the 1980s-1990s, you could argue that calculus was not…

Calculus is not just about gradients. Fundamentally, calculus is about calculation and symbolic logic, a much older concept that predates its usage in gradient-based machine learning. In this sense, calculus holds deep connections to logical reasoning, proof theory and the foundations of computer science. [1] [1]: https://compcalc.github.io/

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