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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
The SAT has been demonstrated to be effective at predicting success in university. We have almost no evidence about the computer industry's hiring practices. It is completely unscientific. Interviews operate on folklore, not statistics.
This is something your HR department should be very concerned about. If the questions you ask during your interview are not useful in finding a good candidate why are you asking. This isn't just about time either, interviews have some strong laws around them so asking the wrong question could get you in court. I know when we wanted to do a coding test they told use we need to spend 6 months of giving everyone a codin…
The bar below which HR has to be worried is not "we've scientifically determined that our interview questions lead to good on-the-job performance". There has to be some reasonable sense in which you could argue the interview filters for good candidates, but no one is requiring you run studies.
Google once did a retrospective study and found that interview scores for people we ended up hiring were not correlated at all with people's on-the-job performance. I'm pretty sure nothing really changed as a result of this. I think it's a combination of the industry, especially FAANG, being kind of "stuck" on these kinds of interviews, and a lack of clearly better alternatives (I think there are better alternatives but it's not like I can point to studies backing me up).
> I know when we wanted to do a coding test they told use we need to spend 6 months of giving everyone a coding test, have it independently graded by someone not involved in the hiring process. Then after people have worked here for 6 months we examine our actual results from those we hired and see if the tests at all predicted something useful.
This is interesting but also way heavier weight than anything I've ever heard of. OOC where do you work? (Like vague description of kind of company, if you're not comfortable sharing the specific name).
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#133our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…
It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…
Anecdotally I think it raised my scores by maybe 100 points. Not coaching so much as just doing practice tests to learn that, especially for the reading, the questions were actually pretty dumb. Lots of them are asking for the most basic insights. This is surprisingly non obvious or at least was not to me at the time. Many questions were filled with "traps" of answers that felt more insightful and more broadly relevant; but less relevant to the specific passages being questioned on.
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#134This is just so beautifully written it brings a tear to my eye. It explains their rationale, points to evidence, acknowledges shortcomings or gaps in knowledge, and shows empathy for those affected. Worth reading just for its pedagogical value, plus it's on an important topic near and dear to many hearts.
thanks!
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#135Have they considered trying leetcode instead? It seems to work for FANG.
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…
I personally went up 300 points with tutoring, and that was when it was out of 1600. n=1
I went up 240 points by taking the test an additional time and a grade later, without any tutoring in between.
Also n=1.
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring perhaps similar to this push back against the SAT?
> Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring Is there such a pushback? As in, is the percentage of the workforce refusing to take such tests increasing?
It very much depends on the style of coding test - personally, I'm more than happy to do take-home style tests where I prepare something in a matter of a few hours, but I can't stand "leetcode" interviews or anything where I'm pressured to produce in 30 minutes or less; perhaps that's because that's typically not how I work in the real world and in my experience, they do a really poor job of demonstrating my skill set and experience.
I have terminated interviews before they even got started because of poor interview loop design from employers.
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure. So, 2 things. 1) The solution to that is to improve security measures. Not to remove the SAT entirely. 2) It is significantly harder to find someone who can score well on the SAT and is willing to take the test for you compared to gaming GPA, extra curriculars, etc. I've heard of tons of instances of people hiring homework-help services, their dad paying $5k to get their extra-curricular club going, private ten…
> It is significantly harder to find someone who can score well on the SAT and is willing to take the test for you compared to gaming GPA, extra curriculars, etc. Idk about that. I found people to pay me for taking the ACT for them through my alma mater's subreddit. Top schools are full of people who got 35/36, I'm sure there are plenty of other people who scored there and would be willing to take the standardized te…
If the parents/students are willing to cheat on the SAT, they're probably going to have no issue manufacturing extracurriculars. The schools for the most part aren't auditing run of the mill activities (student org leadership, fundraisers, mission trips, local awards), and a lot of local newspapers basically let you write your own articles for them so cheaters can build up documentation if they're really motivated.
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#139our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…
It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…
>It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT.
Disagree. I worked for the Princeton Review while in college back in the day. We would outright guarantee 99th percentile for one on one tutoring. If you didn't get 99th percentile the course was refunded or you could take it again. For classroom tutoring we would guarantee some improvement of I believe 200 (out of 1600) with the same refund or take it again option. Candidly, no one would pay for a prep course for a 30 point gain. These course are expensive. Some of them hundreds of dollars per hour.
The cited research is pretty fundamentally flawed.
"Although extensive, the academic research base does have limitations. Most notably, few published studies have been conducted on students taking admission tests since 2000. Only two studies have been published on the effects for ACT scores, and no studies have been published since the 2005 change to the SAT, which added the Writ- ing section among other changes."
This position also doesn't pass the sniff test. GPA is accumulated over four years of study. SAT/ACT is a single test. You can't retroactively improve your GPA by doing better in the past. But you can dramatically improve your SAT/ACT results.
Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A 30 point increase out of 2400 points is not material to college admissions. Not so sure about that. Beyond the fact that that number is an average, the question is from where to where. So many kids get perfect 2400 scores that going from 2370 to 2400 might be the difference of getting eliminated from competitive admission pools altogether. Whereas nobody will care about you going from 1850 to 1880. P.s. I am dati…
Yeah no the study was definitely not about test prep getting people from 2370 to 2400 lmao. There is no test prep service in the world that will claim they can get you from a 2370 - 2400. The mean SAT score is ~1600, so it's a 30 point increase for students scoring in that range. If you're already capable of getting a 2350+, that means you know everything and it's just down to variance and not making a silly mistake.…
I took it back when it was out of 1600 and missed a perfect by one question; however I don't think I was exceptionally brilliant or anything.
The SAT does not operate in the way the LSAT or some other computerized tests work where it keeps giving you harder and harder questions until you start getting them wrong.
I suspect more people could get a 2400 if those who get really close bother retaking it.