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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#111

Post by xwdv »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #67
neovive wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%! As a parent of a child about to go through the college admissions process (with his heart set on MIT--of course), I want him to read this particularly for the later part of the article: "...you are also not your MIT application..." The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.

I'm a technologist who wanted to attend MIT but, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread, didn't make the cut. I've still had the opportunity to work for the US federal government, unicorn startups, and a detector team at the LHC. As you said, "The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.", and enjoyable, meaningful work can still be accomplishe…

Likewise I know people who went to MIT and are now working shitty low paying jobs in unrelated fields of study and generally have failed to get their life together in reasonable time.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#112

Post by bluGill »

adfgadfgaery wrote: post #41
gameswithgo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring perhaps similar to this push back against the SAT?

The SAT has been demonstrated to be effective at predicting success in university. We have almost no evidence about the computer industry's hiring practices. It is completely unscientific. Interviews operate on folklore, not statistics.

This is something your HR department should be very concerned about. If the questions you ask during your interview are not useful in finding a good candidate why are you asking. This isn't just about time either, interviews have some strong laws around them so asking the wrong question could get you in court.

I know when we wanted to do a coding test they told use we need to spend 6 months of giving everyone a coding test, have it independently graded by someone not involved in the hiring process. Then after people have worked here for 6 months we examine our actual results from those we hired and see if the tests at all predicted something useful. (or something like that - there is room in the scientific process for some variation)

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#113

Post by alecbz »

hiq wrote: post #54
gameswithgo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring perhaps similar to this push back against the SAT?

> Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring Is there such a pushback? As in, is the percentage of the workforce refusing to take such tests increasing?

I don't know if there's a _rising_ pushback but you definitely do hear a not-small amount of complaining about coding interviews on HN.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#114

Post by ghaff »

paulpauper wrote: post #2

our ability to accurately predict student academic success at MIT 02 Our research shows this predictive validity holds even when you control for socioeconomic factors that correlate with testing. It also shows that good grades in high school do not themselves necessarily translate to academic success at MIT if you cannot account for testing. Of course, we can never be fully certain how any given applicant will do: we…

Many years ago--business grad school--one of the professors (forecasting?) had done research into GMATs and various post-school success metrics. Like it or not, the standardized test scores were a better predictor (by far) than anything else.

In terms of gaming scores on standardized tests generally, yes people with more money can take prep classes and the like, but there are also test prep books available--presumably even from the library--that probably get you a lot of the way there.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#115

Post by throwaway0a5e »

IncRnd wrote: post #52
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actions of big prestigious institutions like MIT have an effect on opinion. So if MIT starts doing something tons of people will just knee jerk take their side on whatever the thing is. So another few institutions might follow suit and it might snowball and standard testing could become back in fashion as fast as it went out of fashion.

That's a great point. However, you're using the idiom of the tail wagging the dog incorrectly. The tail wagging the dog usually means something important or influential being controlled by something less so. In other words, the tail would be wagging the dog if I wrote a blog post that made people change their opinions on the SAT.

The movement to shit-can standardized tests was far bigger than MIT or any one institution and was part of a broader political trend whereby these sorts of institutions have been adopting particular positions. Hence MIT is the tail in this case.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#116

Post by whimsicalism »

foobarian wrote: post #39
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

> A 30 point increase out of 2400 points is not material to college admissions. Not so sure about that. Beyond the fact that that number is an average, the question is from where to where. So many kids get perfect 2400 scores that going from 2370 to 2400 might be the difference of getting eliminated from competitive admission pools altogether. Whereas nobody will care about you going from 1850 to 1880. P.s. I am dati…

> So many kids get perfect 2400 scores

"So many" being ~500 out of a population of ~7 million or so

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#117

Post by alecbz »

yeahwhatever10 wrote: post #32
gameswithgo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring perhaps similar to this push back against the SAT?

I think that is more about the disconnect between coding tests and the actual day to day work and skills required to do the job. Example: I could have a high level of competency in software engineering and also not care how a mouse gets out of a bucket.

Those "mouse getting out of a blender" brain-teasers or whatever are pretty unheard of at this point I think. Most people complain about coding questions, generally leetcode-style questions I think.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#119

Post by jacobsenscott »

satsuma wrote: post #42
paulmd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah this is a really hard problem and I don't see a fix outside of standardized testing. Every school is individually incentivized to use every trick - grading out of 5.0, grading loosely, giving a bonus score for AP/IB courses "because of difficulty", etc and teachers are obviously very sympathetic to the future of their students and the impact that being a Grading Nazi could have. And parents are obviously incenti…

i came from a rural high school that didn't have any ap/ib courses. i wonder how much that affected my college applications. i still got to go to the college of my choice (fire up chips!) but i have to wonder -- if i was able to boost my gpa using ap/ib courses, would i have received more scholarship opportunities/better offers from other schools?

Admissions officers will tell you they are aware of what programs schools have, and take that into account. If your school has no AP with GPA inflation your 3.x is the same as a 4.x at some bigger high school. How true that is idk.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#120

Post by nradov »

gameswithgo wrote: post #16
tharne wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So much for that common, popular notion that standardized tests do not predict anything of value. To be fair, I don't think the debate was ever about the quality or predictive value of the tests. There is a small, but well-organized and vocal subset of the population that hates the idea of excellence and differentiation. They want, and have been quite successful in, the replacement of standards of excellence with v…

Is the current push back against coding tests in job hiring perhaps similar to this push back against the SAT?

It's more about labor market dynamics and supply versus demand. If there are plenty of developers available to hire then employers will insert extra hurdles in the process to filter out weak candidates (with the understanding that there will be some "false negatives"). But when the labor market is tight then employers will take a chance on any candidate who seems minimally competent because they need to fill the req.
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