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When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

nytimes.com

191–200 of 255 posts

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#191
post #49

It's hard read these stories and not wonder about the parents. At the same time I'm often drawn to the story of my high school buddy's youngest sister. His family was as normal as you might expect, the kids were perhaps unusually "driven", but in good ways, music, athletics, academics, all three even. But the youngest was driven to rebel in the most distributive ways possible, the usual running away from home, older…

Well, sometimes families can be, internally, incredibly abusive while presenting a very convincing image of being loving and caring, even "perfect in every way" to an outsider. If you go to places where survivors of narcissistic or familial abuse congregate it's not uncommon to hear stories of people saying of an abusive parent things like "all my friends used to say 'i wish my mum was like your mum'" and what not. It can be very hard to escape from such situations, sometimes people who seem to have escaped, later voluntarily return to them. Sometimes, when even heinous abuse becomes exposed, the victims will protect the abusers. Narcissistic families excel at keeping secrets.

You have to realise that children have genetic wiring for survival. If their parents are neglectful or abusive, the child cannot simply go on to the free market to shop for a replacement. Rather, they are much more likely to become increasingly compliant, in order to extract as much care as possible from the defective parent. Mild forms of this can involve the child performing very well at school, or in sports, once they realise that love is contingent on performance. Children who feel invisible might act out because negative attention is perceived, perversely, as a workable substitute for love.

Over time, the roles in narcissistic family systems can change around: the golden child can become invisible, or the black sheep, or vice versa. Humans are at the same time as being quite vulnerable to abusive and neglectful environments, also incredibly resilient to them - finding coping strategies which work, even if they can appear to be incredibly destructive, self-destructive, or totally inexplicable to someone lacking the full context.

There is a book called "The Narcissistic Family" by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman which describes the dynamics that can occur in these sorts of family systems.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know who else tried to predict future compatibility of certain people based on genetics? We are as much a product of our genes as we are of our environment. Nothing justifies any of those measures described in the NYYT article and by others in this thread. Nothing, period. If people commit crimes, we have a justice system (no matter how fucked up those can be, not even talking about prisons). For those truly havi…

>You know who else tried to predict future compatibility of certain people based on genetics? Jesus, a Hitler reference? Lots of organizations that aren't Hitler diagnose behavior based on genetics, including alcohol and drug abuse prevention and modern medicine. Your parents have cancer? Well predictively you might have a higher chance of getting it too. Your parents are smart? We should test you for the gifted prog…

>> Most of the time people are harmed, not just the troubled individual but the family of 4 they crash into and kill on a drunken joyride. What tools do parents have to prevent that? That's the whole point of the discussion.

Answer: None. Because it can happen, all the time. Whether those kids are 16, 18, 25 or 53. Also, it is a pretty specific example...

EDIT: Just because it hits home, genetic prevalence of cancer is something completely different from behavior and how people work in a society. Don't even think of comparing those. The former is your body turning on you, the latter is society deciding you are "troubled" and need "fixing".

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so the question becomes, how do you break that cycle? These kids may grow up planning to be different from their parents. But when you become a parent, "muscle memory" can kick in. You end up parenting as yours did because that's what you know.

This really is the question. Not to be crass but at least 3 of the kids I knew were grabbed at night and taken to these places broke the cycle by committing suicide. I was tempted to respond to the Englishman in this thread who posted a heartbreaking story by asking whether he/they thought this was still having ramifications forward in British society, but then I thought, well it's an extension of 400 years of beatin…

> 400 years of beatings and rape in the British Navy

Ah, yes: when someone mentioned British Naval traditions to Churchill, he replied "Rum, sodomy and the lash".

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're creating a false dichotomy. Obviously these abusive camps are bad. That doesn't need to be said. Irrespective of the camps, OPs parenting advice is bad, insulting, and deserves to be called out.

Your solution sounds like we should try nothing, > There are kids who cannot be reasoned with. Are you familiar with an approach that can help? The approach I mention has been around for over 70 years.

I have seen limited success of real mental health institutions (nothing like the camps in TFA, obviously). I have also seen rehab work pretty well when substance abuse is involved.

The most effective method, though, is time. The author of the article is one example, and there are many more in these comments. Eventually, the teenage brain becomes an adult brain and a lot of the rage, impulsiveness, and destructive behaviors go away. (Most) people mature eventually. The key is to try to limit the damage of the "troubled" phase. If you end up going to jail in your teenage years because you act out, you're going to have a much harder time building a life for yourself later on.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha right, failure is part of parenting. Admit it! Even to your kids. You're a better parent for it, and it doesn't mean you're giving up. It just gives you a way to backtrack and avoid painting yourself into a corner. And yes, if you already have a parenting style that works, stick with it. I mention Positive Discipline because it works for me and there are a lot of resources for it.

Fair enough! Positive Discipline wouldn't be my go-to approach (no formalized, available in book form would be by the way), so. I stick with Space Cowboys: "Lord, don't let us screw up." Not screwing up your kids is already high enough a bar. if they come out on the other end as decent human beings able to live their own lives that's all I can hope for. So far so good, but then the rough teenage years are still ahead…

Ah, I love the books. Dreikurs made a career out of interviewing kids and training teachers, so I feel like I experience a lifetime of wisdom while reading his books. That said there is no substitute for thinking on your feet.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You know who else tried to predict future compatibility of certain people based on genetics? Jesus, a Hitler reference? Lots of organizations that aren't Hitler diagnose behavior based on genetics, including alcohol and drug abuse prevention and modern medicine. Your parents have cancer? Well predictively you might have a higher chance of getting it too. Your parents are smart? We should test you for the gifted prog…

>> Most of the time people are harmed, not just the troubled individual but the family of 4 they crash into and kill on a drunken joyride. What tools do parents have to prevent that? That's the whole point of the discussion. Answer: None. Because it can happen, all the time. Whether those kids are 16, 18, 25 or 53. Also, it is a pretty specific example... EDIT: Just because it hits home, genetic prevalence of cancer…

>Just because it hits home, genetic prevalence of cancer is something completely different from behavior and how people work in a society.

>You know who else tried to predict future compatibility of certain people based on genetics?

Both can be predicted genetically. You insinuated predicting outcomes in genetics was bad somehow because Hitler did it. It wasn't a great argument, you should just own up to it.

≥Don't even think of comparing those.

You ain't my daddy. You think you're the only person with experience with cancer? Everybody, and I mean everybody has a cross to bear.

>The former is your body turning on you, the latter is society deciding you are "troubled" and need "fixing".

You shouldn't minimize mental health issues, many of these troubles can be the result of that, at least in part. Killing a family of 4 in a drunken joyride isn't just society deciding you are troubled, it has real world consequences. You seem to have some emotional block to thinking about this rationally.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#198
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ll even give that in some cases there is just some condition that makes a kid incredibly out of despite actual loving supporting parents, but I would wager you can find environmental causes in most cases. It seems wrong to single out environmental causes as dominant. There are parents with multiple children who all did fine except one. Anyway, we know it's a complicated mix of genetics and environment and either…

> Parents are much less sacrosanct in the US/UK than anywhere else. By what measure? Cultural relevance or actual legal authority? > No one actually knows how to raise children. We have a much better idea now about how to meet the developmental needs of children than ever before, I think almost anyone would argue. We have studies on the outcomes of things like corporal punishment. We have the ACE study and it’s effec…

> By what measure? Cultural relevance or actual legal authority?

Both. Wales made corporeal punishment illegal recently. That would be unthinkable in most of the world. In most Asian cultures, children have a lifelong obligation to their parents. In the US, once you're an adult, you're on your own and it's not uncommon to have limited contact with your parents.

> We have a much better idea now about how to meet the developmental needs of children than ever before, I think almost anyone would argue. We have studies on the outcomes of things like corporal punishment. We have the ACE study and it’s effects. So many other foundational developmental science has been done in the last 30 years.

We might know more than we used to but we know very little. I suspect the vast majority of these studies have no predictive power.

> I certainly won’t argue against that but I would argue that having people have at least a cursory education on child rearing might be something that would help. As a survivor of abuse it’s very difficult to allow for the idea that nothing further could be done for kids in similar positions.

I think your experience ("survivor of abuse") probably informs your views more than supposed advances in science of child development. And the same is true for me: the fact that my parents were/are wonderful and my father hit me occasionally explains my views here.

There is such a thing as abuse, it should be illegal, and it's a serious problem. But we're in danger of demonizing discipline and reasonable physical punishment. My experience is that discipline and love aren't opposites, they should coexist and when you don't have one, you're going to have trouble.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, often the reasons why kids act out in ways that adults don't understand is that those kids have suffered abuse. A kid who's been abused may end up being violent, suicidal, addicted to drugs or all the above. The schools and parents may not know about the abuse, so their answer is to use extreme discipline. This just makes things worse. I brought it up because it is usually an underlying reason for kids doing craz…

> You think your kid hasn't been molested. There's a good chance he has. This. If they get therapy, there's a slim chance that that therapy will lift the repression and expose the trauma; but it's usually repressed for good reasons, and exposing it will just lead to more trauma. But if you can make them feel safe and loved, you have a reasonable chance of addressing the unwanted behaviour. Consigning them to a coerci…

>> Consigning them to a coercive regime in another state isn't going to make them feel safe and loved.

Especially when you have them snatched at night from their safe space. That alone is serious trauma. And should be illegal, regardless if the parents are ok with it or not.

Re: When I was labeled a ‘troubled’ teen, I obliged

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a parent? And if so, did you use your approach? It would just be anecdata, but at least some real world experience.

Yes and yes, of course I do! I've learned a ton from this discipline and never need to raise my voice with my kid. When I do raise my voice, it is almost always unnecessary. I apologize in those cases because I want her to know we can recover from mistakes and that it is okay to be upset. Our relationship is stronger for it.

With one of our three kids, everything from those nicey-nice parenting books works perfectly, and always has. It goes exactly how the books say it will. It's wonderful, and so damn easy.

Not so much with the other two.

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