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Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

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Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#81

Post by olliej »

vlovich123 wrote: post #75
efitz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about markups but in most industries businesses would envy a 10% profit margin.

Finally found something [1]. > When setting your wholesale price, first multiply your cost of goods by two. This will ensure your wholesale profit margin is at least 50%. Profit margin is the gross profit a retailer earns when an item is sold. Apparel retail brands typically aim for a 30% to 50% wholesale profit margin, while direct-to-consumer retailers aim for a profit margin of 55% to 65%. (A margin is sometimes a…

The argument that 30% is excessive and a product of their monopoly is bullshit.

1) the majority of apps don’t pay apple a cent because they make their money off selling user information

2) of those that remain most likely aren’t reaching the income point where it stops being 15%

3) 30% matches the payments of every other store, except those stores that don’t pay for any of the platform development. It’s super easy to charge next to nothing when you don’t have to pay actual engineers to make actual products.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#82

Post by olliej »

_abox wrote: post #47
Spivak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Not via the App Store” != “Without Apple Approval” Side loading will likely still require a business agreement with Apple and “App Review” to get a cert that allows your app to run.

That would really defeat the whole purpose... I'm sure this is not the intention of this law. However it is indeed possible that Apple would weasel such a requirement through the loopholes, yes.

Who should pay for the cost of development then? Apple has always been very clear, the store commission is for use of their IP. Any other store can undercut apple because they don’t have to pay any of the development costs for the platform.

There is no weaseling, it is very simple: the commission covers the licensing. The alternative is saying that apple must develop software, give it away for free, then let random stores make a profit selling software that they contributed nothing to.

It is exactly equivalent to the EU saying that a company should be free to use GPL software however they like, including selling at a profit, without providing the sources.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#83

Post by olliej »

aaomidi wrote: post #58
_abox wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would really defeat the whole purpose... I'm sure this is not the intention of this law. However it is indeed possible that Apple would weasel such a requirement through the loopholes, yes.

The more they try to block this, the heavier the regulations are going to be on them. At some point Apple might see itself being split apart because of its constant and well documented abuse of it's status in the market.

What market abuse? And what do you split up? Apple is a hardware company, all the software they write is purely to make the hardware they sell attractive to consumers.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#84

Post by LegitShady »

olliej wrote: post #80
LegitShady wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

apple can charge whatever they want once they allow alternatives for competition.

The point is none of the third party app stores pay for any of the platform development, so why should they get to benefit from them?

the platform development comes with sale of the platform - which is to say the customer has already paid to have it developed by buying the phone.

Many developers don't want to have apple be their gatekeeper for apps. They should be able to have alternatives. Apple's rent seeking behaviour is to take platform development in the cost of the device and again to distribute apps without any alternative.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#85

Post by danielscrubs »

I’m not as optimistic as you guys. What I think we will get is a fragmented mess, with the app store that allows the most stealing of data winning. WeChat is a good example where on Android they require access to your whole contact list to even start but on iOS this is not the case because Apple don’t allow it. Competition is going to make this things worse not better. Once you have competition that uses dark patterns (ui), those guys earn more money and can drown out the marketing the “good guys” do. Look at New York Times unsubscription over the phone and others. I see some apps moving between app stores to chase the money, not the “best for the user”-award.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#86

Post by danielscrubs »

Apocryphon wrote: post #37
olliej wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when some critical app forces you to use their store. I hope at the very least apple can mandate that the additional app stores enforce the same privacy and safety rules, or would the EU consider that allowing people to not be spied on be to much of an infringement of the rights of business?

As I mentioned elsewhere, it’s debatable whether or not the other tech giants are really going to bother creating another app store, and then force users to migrate there. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30280457 Such a move is basically mutually assured destruction- they would be taking their critical app off the official Apple App Store, and in doing so inviting huge customer backlash. Besides the negative pre…

Epic has wanted to do this for a long time. If you have enough clout like Fortnite had, you can do it. You also have GOG, Steam and other game stores on PC. They might also push “mobile carriers should be able to install whatever they want”-legislation that adds extra app stores.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#87

Post by Apocryphon »

danielscrubs wrote: post #86
Apocryphon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned elsewhere, it’s debatable whether or not the other tech giants are really going to bother creating another app store, and then force users to migrate there. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30280457 Such a move is basically mutually assured destruction- they would be taking their critical app off the official Apple App Store, and in doing so inviting huge customer backlash. Besides the negative pre…

Epic has wanted to do this for a long time. If you have enough clout like Fortnite had, you can do it. You also have GOG, Steam and other game stores on PC. They might also push “mobile carriers should be able to install whatever they want”-legislation that adds extra app stores.

You make some good points, but in my linked comment, and in the comment linked to that comment, I do carve out an exception that game publishers will likely be ones who want to pursue having their own third party app stores. That is because as seen in the PC gaming world, such companies can ruthlessly force gamers to join their locked down stores. But I think this is a specific niche that allows for that because games are a medium that’s developed into this sort of unique landscape.

Also, I’m uncertain if many of these companies really have that many iOS game exclusives to incentivize this sort of lock in- Epic being a major exception. But most other publishers don’t exactly have big iOS libraries. Most of their apps are more like incidental tie-in material accompanying their actual PC and console titles.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#88

Post by Apocryphon »

danielscrubs wrote: post #85

I’m not as optimistic as you guys. What I think we will get is a fragmented mess, with the app store that allows the most stealing of data winning. WeChat is a good example where on Android they require access to your whole contact list to even start but on iOS this is not the case because Apple don’t allow it. Competition is going to make this things worse not better. Once you have competition that uses dark pattern…

I don’t see the other giants being sufficiently motivated to, nor having the ability to execute, lasting competitive 3rd party app stores. Maybe if it was a decade ago. It not that they don’t have the resources or technical capabilities to it, but I don’t think they have the product ability to excel on the platform of a competitor, in this case Apple. And consumers are just sick of having to manage more accounts. They’re not going to have the patience to let iOS fragmemt like the streaming space has.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#89

Post by olliej »

LegitShady wrote: post #84
olliej wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is none of the third party app stores pay for any of the platform development, so why should they get to benefit from them?

the platform development comes with sale of the platform - which is to say the customer has already paid to have it developed by buying the phone. Many developers don't want to have apple be their gatekeeper for apps. They should be able to have alternatives. Apple's rent seeking behaviour is to take platform development in the cost of the device and again to distribute apps without any alternative.

So you think the Samsung model is correct? That is, devices shouldn’t receive any updates after the initial purchase?

I will accept the argument that apple’s gatekeeping is ridiculous, a lot of that is the bizarre prudishness of the US, but saying that apple should not be compensated at a rate that is generally below the market - the majority of apps on the AppStore are freemium from which apple makes nothing, the remainder are mostly only paying a 15% commission. This is vs 30% or so on game consoles, 30% on steam, etc.

Re: Apple forced to allow sideloading and 3rd-party app stores under new EU law

#90

Post by Anunayj »

nulld3v wrote: post #68
Anunayj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I think the current root/jailbreak situation on android is fine, I feel like there should atleast be a some technical barrier to that power.

I'll be happy after they get rid of Samsung Knox and put more restrictions on who can use the SafetyNet API.

Oh yeah Samsung Devices are weird.. I think they even have a different fastboot implementation. But I do not think that represents "stock" android?
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