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Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

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Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#31

Post by caslon »

> But there are a few problems with this. The keyword lists always have glaring omissions. Millions of young adults can still easily find dangerous content, such as tips on how to self-harm or kill themselves.

This is an incredibly condescending worldview. If a person's going to commit suicide, allowing them to find methods that aren't likely to fail or cause extreme amounts of pain is incredibly important. By interrupting their access to information, you're likely to end up pushing suicidal people into making attempts using what little information they already know, which can often lead to excruciatingly painful medical consequences for the rest of their lives, whether lasting minutes or decades.

Intervention is good, but pushing for the elimination of the ability to find that content is almost impossible to see as anything but harmful.

By the way, are you related to the chain of Robert Morrisi that worked on UNIX, wrote the first computer worm, and wrote the language this site is written in?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Morris_(cryptographer)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#32

Post by lostgame »

matsemann wrote: post #23
Hamuko wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the word you're looking for is "cuckoo".

Ah, so spelled differently in English, but still the same sound.

I read KoKo as ‘Koh Koh’, not ‘Koo Koo’.

Still, in retrospect - definitely a bad naming choice for a service like this.

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#33

Post by robertrmorris »

spicybright wrote: post #30
jotm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, that's actually more of a warning. If you don't quit posting about suicide, they temporarily suspend your account, then if you do it again, they permanently ban your account, and if you do it yet again (say, you're a complete loser who can't get through with it, with zero help and the only thing you can do is, well, complain about it online) you get permabanned based on your IP and email info. Even in the few s…

and, from my own experience, the whole idea of sending someone anti-suicide hotlines is a bit... insulting, honestly. It's like if I had a chronic back condition, and instead of finding from people wanting to listen I get the equivalent of a flyer in the mail about back issues. The person that was trying to ends the potentially uncomfortable conversation and gets to wash their hands of the situation, thinking they he…

Frankly, I agree with pretty much all of this. We hear similar things from our users. This is why we try to provide a suite of options, including things like peer support and other interventions they can engage with immediately — as compliments to lifelines. We’re still learning about what works best, but the status quo is abysmal. Here’s an example: I can go on Google and search for “flight to Miami” and I’ll be led through an incredible UX that’s designed to get me to a purchase as quickly as possible. But if I search for “depression”, I get a one-box that provides a list of clinical definitions of depression, bipolar, and its various subtypes — better suited for a diagnostic manual than for anyone who might actually be struggling. Other platforms provide tips on how to take a deep breath, reach out to friends, or walk around the block (the digital equivalent to a health brochure you might find in a waiting room). The shortcomings of these approaches have been studied before, and yet they still persist. Why don’t we measure and track these things with the same rigor we do for all online experiences?

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#34

Post by runnerup »

robertrmorris wrote: post #33
spicybright wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and, from my own experience, the whole idea of sending someone anti-suicide hotlines is a bit... insulting, honestly. It's like if I had a chronic back condition, and instead of finding from people wanting to listen I get the equivalent of a flyer in the mail about back issues. The person that was trying to ends the potentially uncomfortable conversation and gets to wash their hands of the situation, thinking they he…

Frankly, I agree with pretty much all of this. We hear similar things from our users. This is why we try to provide a suite of options, including things like peer support and other interventions they can engage with immediately — as compliments to lifelines. We’re still learning about what works best, but the status quo is abysmal. Here’s an example: I can go on Google and search for “flight to Miami” and I’ll be led…

I know how to help someone buy a plane ticket, and I can program a computer to help them do that.

I often do know how to help people deal with non suicidal depression but I dont always have time and energy to help…and I definitely cannot program a computer to do what I know how to do.

I don’t have any clue how to help someone reduce suicidal intent.

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#35

Post by too_root »

robertrmorris wrote: post #7
too_root wrote: post #4

Your “get started” page didn’t load for me, and your dev docs did some redirect to GitHub after I clicked “Python”. Love the intent though.

Thanks for reporting this. We use an embedded typeform for our signup page which looks to be ok but you can also go directly to the form here ( https://koko-ai.typeform.com/to/xB0X2Grc ). For the Python docs, our language bindings are open sourced and we’ve been maintaining their documentation directly on the repo to ensure it is up to date without having to copy data across. Was the documentation confusing on the gi…

I just clicked the “next page” link and it looked to start loading a new content in the same style as the one I was on, and then redirected to GitHub. Was just a little jarring UX.

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#37

Post by jimmygrapes »

runnerup wrote: post #34
robertrmorris wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I agree with pretty much all of this. We hear similar things from our users. This is why we try to provide a suite of options, including things like peer support and other interventions they can engage with immediately — as compliments to lifelines. We’re still learning about what works best, but the status quo is abysmal. Here’s an example: I can go on Google and search for “flight to Miami” and I’ll be led…

I know how to help someone buy a plane ticket, and I can program a computer to help them do that. I often do know how to help people deal with non suicidal depression but I dont always have time and energy to help…and I definitely cannot program a computer to do what I know how to do. I don’t have any clue how to help someone reduce suicidal intent.

I've thought about this topic a lot myself (how to reduce or remove suicidal intent) and the most consistently "successful" and promising (yet still vague) solution has been: make an IMMEDIATE and significant change in the suicidal person's environment. Environment includes where they are, how much money/debt/costs they have, who they are in contact with, and many other factors. These are the factors that underlie and trigger the suicidal intent (n.b. depression may exist but it is entirely orthogonal under this premise).

I don't mean "fix the problem that made them suicidal."

I mean physically pick them up and take them somewhere else (a safe place preferably, but there's something to be said for a sudden shock of actual danger). I mean send them a thousand bucks. I mean pay off their car loan, pay their rent for a year, something that eliminates that primary stressor.

Suicide is very often a single/recurrent practical situation that gets catastrophized into sheer despair, yes often with other mental health concerns confounding. But you can't fix those immediately. You can bring force to rehab (not great, many downsides). You can take them for coffee.

Talking might help, in fact it's necessary, but it's not enough.

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#39

Post by codingdave »

caslon wrote: post #31

> But there are a few problems with this. The keyword lists always have glaring omissions. Millions of young adults can still easily find dangerous content, such as tips on how to self-harm or kill themselves. This is an incredibly condescending worldview. If a person's going to commit suicide, allowing them to find methods that aren't likely to fail or cause extreme amounts of pain is incredibly important. By interr…

Lives are saved by not having easy information on how to commit suicide. When you talk to suicidal teens, often the reason they seek help is because they don't have a workable plan. So putting these roadblocks in their way drives them to seek help instead of making and carrying out plans. This is basic safety, like locking away knives and medication - don't help them plan.

Re: Launch HN: Koko (YC W22 Nonprofit) – Online Suicide Prevention Kit

#40

Post by jpindar »

jimmygrapes wrote: post #37
runnerup wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know how to help someone buy a plane ticket, and I can program a computer to help them do that. I often do know how to help people deal with non suicidal depression but I dont always have time and energy to help…and I definitely cannot program a computer to do what I know how to do. I don’t have any clue how to help someone reduce suicidal intent.

I've thought about this topic a lot myself (how to reduce or remove suicidal intent) and the most consistently "successful" and promising (yet still vague) solution has been: make an IMMEDIATE and significant change in the suicidal person's environment. Environment includes where they are, how much money/debt/costs they have, who they are in contact with, and many other factors. These are the factors that underlie an…

Truth. The only reason I'm suicidal is that I'm broke.
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