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The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

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Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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If you keep breaking the site guidelines like this, we're going to have to ban you. I realize the current situation is highly charged, but you have a history of doing this on HN since long before this war, and we've had to warn you many times. It wasn't ok then, and it's not ok now. Difficult circumstances do not make it ok to burn this place down.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29523580 (Dec 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28090599 (Aug 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26537314 (March 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21309680 (Oct 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20900584 (Sept 2019)

Edit: Just so you know, I posted this before I saw https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30812090 and was not intending to pile on.

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#32
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating for collective punishment is a serious breach of the site guidelines and is not allowed here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are on a topic. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I think he meant punishement as in sanctions

The burden is on the commenter to distinguish their comment from sickening tropes of inhumanity.

It's astonishing how quickly these things come back to the surface and feel ok and perfectly justified. They're not ok, they're not justified, and this is no way to react to the atrocities and suffering happening right now.

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#33
post #13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Advocating for collective punishment is a serious breach of the site guidelines and is not allowed here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are on a topic. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There's a fine line between advocating for collective punishment and just acknowledging the fact that populations who more-or-less fail to advocate and/or work towards responsible government within their own countries will eventually reap what they've been (perhaps inadvertently) sowing-- if only by getting caught in the resulting cross-fire. The latter is an important point and it should not go unsaid in such a challenging situation. No one sane is happy about average Russians' current predicament. But it is what it is.

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#34
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guidelines do not contain any mention of punishment. And if a sanction is punishment, we are not allowed to discuss if sanctions and what level of them is okay?

It's one thing to say "I recognize that individual Russians are not at fault, but in the middle of a total war civilians inevitably get caught in the crossfire. At least with these economic weapons no one is getting killed." It's another to say "you are all at fault, even if indirectly, and so you all deserve to be punished." That second comment would violate at least "be kind" and "comments should get more thoughtfu…

Modern international law is based on the acknowledgement of popular sovereignty, which has an unavoidable "collective" dimension. What's wrong with making the argument that, like most everything else, sovereignty comes with rights but also responsibilities when the country that one's "sovereign" on starts engaging in bad behavior towards others? Average Germans have had to apologize and be responsible "collectively", at least to some extent, for the Nazi regime's atrocities. Was that inhumane, too?

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainians revolt, and then try a new guy. Russians, in the other hand, overwhelmingly support the same guy through everything he does. There's almost no resistance. The population feels they have no responsibility, that the higher ups always do what's right. And this is the result, Russians confused about why anyone may be upset at them.

On what basis you say that 'there's almost no resistance'? Have you seen anti-war protests? Do you know the potential personal costs of such protests?

Have you been protesting?

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#36

There is no way this war is fought for the benefit of Russia as a whole, not even in the form of a neo soviet union. Russia isn't threatened directly by the west, nuclear weapons are a sufficient deterrent and Europe is a loyal customer of coal, gas and oil. If nuclear weapons grant super power status amongst nations, then Russia is doing everything in its power to reduce its ability to maintain its current nuclear c…

>I sure hope Putin is an evil genius because if he isn't I can only say "Say goodbye to your super power status, Russia, and enjoy your hard fought international insignificance!" I never understood what Putin's end game was here with this war, what can he earn extra of what he doesn't already have? He's already one of the world's richest men and he's already quite old. Couldn't he just like take his insane wealth and…

>Couldn't he just like take his insane wealth and retire to some Caribbean island

Putin isn't a startup founder. The man has no interest in leaving Russia and if you go and read his piece on the question of Ukrainian and Russian statehood[1] it's very clear that to him, Ukraine has historical and even spiritual significance. Going all the way back to the Kievan Rus he sees the three peoples of Belarus, Ukraine and Russia as inseparable and the emergence of, in his view, 'anti-Russian Russia' in Ukraine as a red line.

And I don't know why people keep this 'the world's richest man' meme alive but just because he always tolerated the oligarchs as a support structure for the state there was never any indication he cared a single bit about money. He always had aspirations to restore Russia to a great power, quite openly.

[1]http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#37
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I sure hope Putin is an evil genius because if he isn't I can only say "Say goodbye to your super power status, Russia, and enjoy your hard fought international insignificance!" I never understood what Putin's end game was here with this war, what can he earn extra of what he doesn't already have? He's already one of the world's richest men and he's already quite old. Couldn't he just like take his insane wealth and…

Might sound stupid but perhaps it's the same restlessness everyone has? What do I now after building my home? Doing the garden. Okay what now? Also a little bit like CK: he was musturbating in front of a few woman in the office and did not get spoken out. He took the Crimea without real troubles perhaps this combined with him being allowed to poison people around the world and hacking the west gave him the feeling th…

I might very well be mistaken, but this war and Russia's belligerence during the last 10 years never seemed to me a matter of ambition and territorial expansion, but rather desperation. Putin is 70, and his death will certainly plunge Russia into a period of turmoil. It doesn't matter if a successor is anointed by big P himself. The democratic opposition will see it as an opportunity for reform. The political and military elites will be fighting each other to advance their position. I'd be surprised if after Putin's death the Russian state could settle for a coherent agenda and foreign strategy within a decade.

The last time Russians found themselves in a similar position, NATO and the EU showed up at their doorstep. Baltic countries, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria... all of them joined NATO and/or EU in quick succession.

That's what I think Putin is trying to prevent. So the goal is to either have loyal buffer states (e.g. Belarus, Kazakhstan) or leave "unruly" buffer states (Georgia, Ukraine) in such state of destruction and disarray, that after Putin's death, Russia could get back on its feet before those states could focus again on entering international alliances. In other worlds, if I need 10 years to recover, I'll make sure you need 20 years, even if it adds a couple of years to my tally.

Of course this need of keeping NATO at bay exists only if the economic and political strategy of the state is to be an international gun for hire. It's a pity that the Russian elites decided to go for the easy buck with gas and military instead of developing the huge technical and artistic talent of the Russian people.

The irony is, after Iraq's invasion, NATO was incredibly unpopular in many European countries, and actions against Russia were seen as undesirable. I think fellow Europeans will agree that we saw Russia as an authoritarian state with old-fashioned values, but we were hopeful that one day we could have shared institutions and deeper political and economic cooperation. Now a lot of my fellow citizens perceive Russia as a direct enemy.

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#38
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might sound stupid but perhaps it's the same restlessness everyone has? What do I now after building my home? Doing the garden. Okay what now? Also a little bit like CK: he was musturbating in front of a few woman in the office and did not get spoken out. He took the Crimea without real troubles perhaps this combined with him being allowed to poison people around the world and hacking the west gave him the feeling th…

I might very well be mistaken, but this war and Russia's belligerence during the last 10 years never seemed to me a matter of ambition and territorial expansion, but rather desperation. Putin is 70, and his death will certainly plunge Russia into a period of turmoil. It doesn't matter if a successor is anointed by big P himself. The democratic opposition will see it as an opportunity for reform. The political and mil…

>The last time Russians found themselves in a similar position, NATO and the EU showed up at their doorstep. Baltic countries, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria... all of them joined NATO and/or EU in quick succession.

NATO and the EU did not show up at their doorsteps. Baltic and Eastern European states willingly joined NATO and the EU seeking better economic opportunities than what they had under Russian imposed communism and protection against future Russian aggression.

NATO didn't invade those countries under special military operations but those countries joined willingly since it was in their best interest and despite the EU's and NATO's faults, they're better alternatives than living in the fear of Russian aggression where the sate can imprison you for saying stuff against state approved propaganda and living in constant poverty and corruption.

Eastern Europe has ~50 years worth of scars to prove how vile such regimes were. That's why they were so eager to join NATO and the EU at the first chance they got and they flourished quiet well after that economically and socially. And Ukrainians wanted the same for their country since 2014, not living as Russia's puppet state forever.

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I sure hope Putin is an evil genius because if he isn't I can only say "Say goodbye to your super power status, Russia, and enjoy your hard fought international insignificance!" I never understood what Putin's end game was here with this war, what can he earn extra of what he doesn't already have? He's already one of the world's richest men and he's already quite old. Couldn't he just like take his insane wealth and…

>Couldn't he just like take his insane wealth and retire to some Caribbean island Putin isn't a startup founder. The man has no interest in leaving Russia and if you go and read his piece on the question of Ukrainian and Russian statehood[1] it's very clear that to him, Ukraine has historical and even spiritual significance. Going all the way back to the Kievan Rus he sees the three peoples of Belarus, Ukraine and Ru…

For somebody who doesn’t “care a single bit about money” he certainly has gathered a significant amount of material wealth for himself, his mistresses, etc.

But then again, since you’re taking his ridiculous casus belli scribblings at a face value, there’s little I can do to convince you.

Re: The Russians Fleeing Putin's Wartime Crackdown

#40

It would be so much easier for any skilled worker to flee Russia if various western companies would stop virtue signalling and stop this trend of cancelling all services for Russians. By doing this they feel good, but are actually helping Putin and his criminal gang. I was ready for our criminal government to start building a Russian Firewall to hinder access to non-government propaganda for Russian Citizens, but I w…

It would also make it less desirable to move.

Besides the biggest hindrance of the emigraes is probably the bank account USD limit, but that is all Russias doing.

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