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Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

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Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#91

Post by klyrs »

anfilt wrote: post #86
klyrs wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm a strong believer in personal responsibility, and as a corollary, I believe that men should take responsibility for their effluvia. It takes two to make a child, and the kid cannot be responsible before adulthood. Don't want a baby? Wrap it up, don't have unprotected sex, or coming soon, take a pill.

It's not common, but there are cases like this: Here a women took a use condom form the trash to get pregnate. https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2003_07_thu_01.shtml Women Forged a signature of her ex-husband at an IVF clinic that had his sperm, and he still had to pay child support. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8544783/Woman-had-tw... There are numerous other cases like this, not common but it does…

Two anecdotes pales in comparison to the frequency of deadbeats: less than half of custodial parents* receive the full amount, and almost a third never receive a payment.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/cb18-tps...

But ultimately, the child is the most vulnerable party in question. Yes, our legal system is geared to protect them first. It's not the best outcome for either parent. But the kid comes first, because the kid is the most vulnerable and has the greatest potential for societal harm/benefit.

Those cases are bad, yes. Are they statistically significant? Citation please. Men lie about having had vasectomies, too, to have unprotected sex, resulting in unwanted pregnancies. Frequently? I don't know. Guys sneaking their condom off is pretty frequent in my experience, though.

* note the gender neutral term. There are quite a few deadbeat moms too. Single dads need child support too.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#92

Post by anfilt »

klyrs wrote: post #91
anfilt wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not common, but there are cases like this: Here a women took a use condom form the trash to get pregnate. https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2003_07_thu_01.shtml Women Forged a signature of her ex-husband at an IVF clinic that had his sperm, and he still had to pay child support. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8544783/Woman-had-tw... There are numerous other cases like this, not common but it does…

Two anecdotes pales in comparison to the frequency of deadbeats: less than half of custodial parents* receive the full amount, and almost a third never receive a payment. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/cb18-tps... But ultimately, the child is the most vulnerable party in question. Yes, our legal system is geared to protect them first . It's not the best outcome for either parent. But the kid come…

I saying this happens and courts need to have legal discretion to handle the circumstances of the case. In cases like this it's insane a man should have to have shoulder responsibility. Discretion is important for edge cases. Further putting a the child above all else and causing unjust harm to people is wrong, and should not something we want courts doing. They should ensure things are just. Statistically significance should not matter this is matter of injustice in these cases.

I am not arguing against going after child support from dead beats. Although, the punishments some times go to far. Taking a driver license away for example and then they can't get a job/lose it ect... and even at times putting them in jail and forcing them to pay while in jail while unable to work makes it even worse. These are different issue than what we were talking about though. Let's not move the discussion to much.

As for lying about birth control I said it's more murky, but such blatant edge cases as pointed out above certainly should not be handled as they currently are.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#93

Post by anfilt »

klyrs wrote: post #91
anfilt wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not common, but there are cases like this: Here a women took a use condom form the trash to get pregnate. https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2003_07_thu_01.shtml Women Forged a signature of her ex-husband at an IVF clinic that had his sperm, and he still had to pay child support. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8544783/Woman-had-tw... There are numerous other cases like this, not common but it does…

Two anecdotes pales in comparison to the frequency of deadbeats: less than half of custodial parents* receive the full amount, and almost a third never receive a payment. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/cb18-tps... But ultimately, the child is the most vulnerable party in question. Yes, our legal system is geared to protect them first . It's not the best outcome for either parent. But the kid come…

Here is an other example of child rape victim forced to pay child support: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma...

Such a legal system is not just if it can't handle cases like this.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#94

Post by klyrs »

anfilt wrote: post #92
klyrs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two anecdotes pales in comparison to the frequency of deadbeats: less than half of custodial parents* receive the full amount, and almost a third never receive a payment. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/cb18-tps... But ultimately, the child is the most vulnerable party in question. Yes, our legal system is geared to protect them first . It's not the best outcome for either parent. But the kid come…

I saying this happens and courts need to have legal discretion to handle the circumstances of the case. In cases like this it's insane a man should have to have shoulder responsibility. Discretion is important for edge cases. Further putting a the child above all else and causing unjust harm to people is wrong, and should not something we want courts doing. They should ensure things are just. Statistically significan…

> Discretion is important for edge cases. Further putting a the child above all else and causing unjust harm to people is wrong, and should not something we want courts doing.

I'm taking a Utilitarian position on a Trolley Problem here. Of course you can change the equation by putting Hitler or Mother Theresa on the tracks. I've agreed that some edge cases have been handled badly; what is your desired outcome of this?

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#95

Post by klyrs »

anfilt wrote: post #93
klyrs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two anecdotes pales in comparison to the frequency of deadbeats: less than half of custodial parents* receive the full amount, and almost a third never receive a payment. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2018/cb18-tps... But ultimately, the child is the most vulnerable party in question. Yes, our legal system is geared to protect them first . It's not the best outcome for either parent. But the kid come…

Here is an other example of child rape victim forced to pay child support: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma... Such a legal system is not just if it can't handle cases like this.

The legal system is not just in all edge cases. This is known. The good news is that bad precedents can be overturned.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#96

Post by powersnail »

simonblack wrote: post #85

The thing about Birth Control for Men is that there's no penalty for lying. Men aren't the ones who get pregnant after saying "Of course I'm on the Pill, darling." Women who believe that are as bad/stupid/dumb as the ones who believe a man who says "Trust Me".

What would be motivation, though?

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#97

Post by anfilt »

klyrs wrote: post #94
anfilt wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saying this happens and courts need to have legal discretion to handle the circumstances of the case. In cases like this it's insane a man should have to have shoulder responsibility. Discretion is important for edge cases. Further putting a the child above all else and causing unjust harm to people is wrong, and should not something we want courts doing. They should ensure things are just. Statistically significan…

> Discretion is important for edge cases. Further putting a the child above all else and causing unjust harm to people is wrong, and should not something we want courts doing. I'm taking a Utilitarian position on a Trolley Problem here. Of course you can change the equation by putting Hitler or Mother Theresa on the tracks. I've agreed that some edge cases have been handled badly; what is your desired outcome of this…

I am saying courts should be allowed to use common sense in edge cases. Ideally in more murky situations the burden should be lessened.

An other statutory rape case: https://www.lawlink.com/research/cases/74059/county-of-san-l...

The victim should not be paying any child support in this case.

Similar, when sperm is taking with zero consent.

Maybe more murky things like lying about birth control if there is solid evidence of that the courts should be able to take that into account ect...In such murky situations I am not saying responsibility should be completly absolved. The child always first is just black and white thinking, and lacks nuance and common sense. That leads to injustice.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#98

Post by cosmodisk »

cozos wrote: post #88
simonblack wrote: post #85

The thing about Birth Control for Men is that there's no penalty for lying. Men aren't the ones who get pregnant after saying "Of course I'm on the Pill, darling." Women who believe that are as bad/stupid/dumb as the ones who believe a man who says "Trust Me".

It would for sure be an asshole thing to do, but men don't really have anything to gain by getting a woman pregnant right? If anything it's a liability (child support payments)

I think you'd be surprised how many out there just want to 'sow the seed' for the sake of it.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#99

Post by anfilt »

klyrs wrote: post #95
anfilt wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an other example of child rape victim forced to pay child support: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma... Such a legal system is not just if it can't handle cases like this.

The legal system is not just in all edge cases. This is known. The good news is that bad precedents can be overturned.

This is problem with how current statues are written for child support. This would take legislative action at least it looks that way in the USA for most states with a cursory google.

Most statues allow courts to have some discretion to handle edge cases. This is not the case with child support. That's why I said it's bad public policy, and there will be more people victimized by these poorly written laws.

Re: Birth control pill for men could begin human trials later this year

#100

Post by subsaharancoder »

sacrosancty wrote: post #77
0xdeadb00f wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not exactly. Women have the power to choose abortion but men don't. Men however are liable for financially supporting the child. The greater risk is with the man. I find brushing off abortion like this a tad ridiculous. Sure one could say the 'risk' is greater. But abortion carries with it emotional, and physical trauma, not to mention a lot of women are still met with shameful looks in today's society for doing so…

That financial liability is 18 years of paying some double-digit percentage of your income to somebody that could be a almost a stranger for nothing in return. All those hours of work wasted is huge, so is the emotional toll of being cheated in such a large scale. Abortion as soon as you discover you're pregnant is just a pill and quite easy.

> Abortion as soon as you discover you're pregnant is just a pill and quite easy.

You mean the intentional killing of a human being is "easy", I read this and I know society is doomed.

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