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Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

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Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#291

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

treis wrote: post #223
DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #124

I’m disappointed but not surprised that the title is editorialized. It specifically leaves off “whistleblower alleges”. It’s literally one disgruntled former employee claiming this. But as usual for HN these days a tiny populations claim - in this case a population of one - is stated as fact.

The piece written by the whisteblower includes links to documents: https://www.lioness.co/post/microsoft-is-using-illegal-bribe...

I think this is an excellent document that should really be the main article.

One of the things I think this really highlights, and that absolutely infuriated me during the Trump impeachment hearings, was that categorizing a whistleblower as a "disgruntled former employee" does not negate the evidence that they show of malfeasance.

I mean, of course whistleblowers are usually disgruntled about something, but a major point of whistleblower protection laws is that the motives of the whistleblower do not matter. To the GP comment's point, it's true we shouldn't just take accusations as proof, but the whole role of a whistleblower is to provide the "thread" that investigators can then pull on to get detailed evidence of what was going on. And, given the links to documents in the above post, I think this looks really, really bad for Microsoft.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#292

Post by Rury »

legalcorrection wrote: post #19

The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act should be repealed and American companies should be allowed to compete on equal footing with their foreign competitors. No other country, even if it technically has an FCPA-like law on the books, actually enforces it to the extent the US does. It means that everyone is free to openly participate in bribery to win foreign markets, markets where bribery is just how business is done, wh…

No, this reeks of putting money over ethics, and would likely increase corruption in the US. IMO, we shouldn't do business with countries via practices we view as corrupt, even if we were following their laws and would mean losing their business.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#293

Post by [deleted] »

trhway wrote: post #199
russellbeattie wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it helps, I had to sit through all that stuff at Amazon as well. I was in the bit that makes consumer electronics and never dealt with contracts in any way, yet still had to spend time learning not to make or take bribes from wholesalers or international businesses or governments. Every. Single. Year. Initially the training software was badly written so you could just open up DevTools and type "v = document.queryS…

Yea, those simple times have passed. Ours require clicks at various points ("Next" and testing questions at the end of sections), so i accumulate them until there are 4-5 of such mandatory crap due and do them simultaneously. I suppose in time they will catch onto that too, and you'd be able to run only one at a time.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#294

Post by wolverine876 »

worik wrote: post #267
spaetzleesser wrote: post #64

I bet this is normal procedure for most companies that do business in countries where bribes are common. In Germany foreign bribes used to be even deductible.

It is arguable that the prohibition of bribes is a cultural thing. So insisting on not bribing in other cultures is some sort of "imperialism". That would make bribing foreign officials a "legitimate" business expense.

If bribes are ok, why don't the criminals openly advertise their prices and what they are doing?

Bribes do economic harm to people of the country, whether we call it 'culture' or something else.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#295

Post by wolverine876 »

lkxijlewlf wrote: post #161

I am just so sick of all the cheating. Every time you turn around, some business, politician, or wealthy person is corrupt as f** and everyone who can do anything about it won't.

What are you doing about it? It's a democracy - like open source software, if you don't like it, change it.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#296

Post by madrox »

I was prepared to get my pitchfork out, but after reading I'm struggling to connect the dots. This article is scant on details of what illegal or favorable behavior Microsoft is expecting in exchange for money. The only concrete mention is a previous SEC filing that has nothing to do with this whistleblower. The first example about $40k doesn't seem to explain what Microsoft was actually thinking it would get for that money, let alone whether that money was illegal. At worst, it seemed to violate corporate policy, which I can understand if that got missed in an initial review. The other examples don't sound like bribery on Microsoft's part so much as resellers squeezing as much out of a deal as they can get away with. I call that a problem with the reseller model.

I imagine Microsoft looks the other way while resellers make lots of money because, realistically, being in some of the markets mentioned is impossible unless you're connected with the right person. While not necessarily efficient, I wouldn't call that illegal or even unethical without a lot more detail than this article provides.

But maybe I'm missing something. This article reads as poorly researched, and the whistleblower comes off as disgruntled more than ethical.

Edit: It's worth noting that the whistleblower's original words are a little more well-written than this article [1]. However, it makes the contrast clearer between what is factual vs what is only insinuated.

1: https://www.lioness.co/post/microsoft-is-using-illegal-bribe...

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#297

Post by burntoutfire »

wolverine876 wrote: post #287
president wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there is a geopolitical perspective to this as well right? Wouldn't want our biggest adversary to have strategic influence over these nations. Not to mention the potential intelligence capabilities from installing our equipment rather than theirs. Whether one country is more righteous than the other doesn't matter at this point - you should be rooting for the country that your survival depends on.

People like to imagine that international relations are completely amoral; it's a sort of thrilling, Game-of-Thrones type fantasy. But that's not the case at all. Look at the EU, NATO and other US alliances (e.g., with Japan). They are connected held together by values. They are very imperfect and corrupt, but these alliances have lasted so long because there is no way, for example, Germany is attacking France again.…

> Meanwhile, while the US promotes democracy and freedom

Didn't the US overthrow many democratically-elected governments (usually because they were leaning towards communism/the Soviets) and install undemocratic dictators in their place?

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#298

Post by mikestew »

criddell wrote: post #50
VyseofArcadia wrote: post #3

Former Microsoftie here. After all the business ethics training videos I had to sit through, I am infuriated by this.

I read a story yesterday[1] how the policy inside Google is to cc their legal department on any emails that you think could make the company look bad in any future legal proceedings. As I understand it, this shields the email from discovery. Did you have similar guidelines inside Microsoft? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30760923

Did you have similar guidelines inside Microsoft?

As one there before, during, after that little DoJ/IE kurfluffle, I recall the guidelines to be simple: there are things you don't talk about in email[0]. Which is why this Google thing mystifies me: why are you talking about it in email at all? And then to rely on what sounds like some crackpot legal theory? (I mean, maybe it's not, and IANAL, but it reeks of "sovereign citizens don't have to pay taxes".)

[0] Yes, that is a vast oversimplification (though accurate) to make a point.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#299

Post by wolverine876 »

burntoutfire wrote: post #297
wolverine876 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to imagine that international relations are completely amoral; it's a sort of thrilling, Game-of-Thrones type fantasy. But that's not the case at all. Look at the EU, NATO and other US alliances (e.g., with Japan). They are connected held together by values. They are very imperfect and corrupt, but these alliances have lasted so long because there is no way, for example, Germany is attacking France again.…

> Meanwhile, while the US promotes democracy and freedom Didn't the US overthrow many democratically-elected governments (usually because they were leaning towards communism/the Soviets) and install undemocratic dictators in their place?

I pointed out times the US has done 'right' and when they have done 'wrong'. Promoting democracy and freedom in some times and places is not incompatible with overthrowing it in others. Right isn't incompatible with wrong; you can't find a single individual who doesn't contain both, much less an entire government. We can't wait for purity to start doing right, or we might as well withdraw to a monestary and pray.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#300

Post by lifeisstillgood »

worik wrote: post #248
jmspring wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally an episode of SoBC where Nelson ends up blindfolded, kidnapped and taken to a black ops site? /s Former here, too, I found it part of "big company" overhead. Had similar things many years ago at a different European based employer.

SoBC?

Special Olympics British Columbia was the best my Google-fu could find. I am assuming some TV series but ...
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