Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 409 posts

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#91

Post by zelon88 »

AlexanderTheGr8 wrote: post #88
zelon88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat confused. Here in America when you want to accomplish something like open a new facility you basically force the potential municipalities into competing with each other to win your favor. A big company will go to all the Chambers of Commerce in a given area and basically say "we're considering opening a 100,000 Sq ft facility and hiring 300 people. What incentives can you offer me if I build it here?" Th…

I'm originally from a small part of India, and the logic is quite simple. In your example, 300 jobs = 300 votes. But it would require millions in incentives to the company. But the local politician can just "buy" 300 votes with 300,000 INR (indian currency; 1000 rupees for 1 vote). So there is no point spending so much money on a facility when you can simply buy all the votes you need.

That is terrifying.

So is Microsoft literally buying and installing politicians in foreign governments?

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#92

Post by ScoobleDoodle »

mc32 wrote: post #76
wpietri wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter. For US persons and companies, it's always illegal. Here's the official page: https://www.trade.gov/us-foreign-corrupt-practices-act Here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act And here's a detailed look at one particular project, a Trump project in Azerbaijan: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-...

Of course the US considers it illegal. But if you’re a Bulgarian executive running the Bulgarian subsidiary of a US company, they may do things closer to local custom despite US corporate directives. You’re demanding that foreigners extirpate their foreignness while they are employees of a US company. It’s not going to happen 100%.

By enforcing anti corruption on the parent company in the US, the parent company should in turn communicate and enforce their own anti corruption stance and policies on their foreign subsidiaries or branches. If there is no consequence for the parent company then the opposite might happen: extra money used for bribes is provided to the foreign subsidiaries with a wink; now the corruption is increasing.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#93

Post by buran77 »

pempem wrote: post #59
fallingknife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think that's necessary part of local culture > Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here Pick one

The OP's comment feels like debating about origin. Is it due to local culture or the standard being set by external actors and their culture

MS has also been involved in bribery scandals all over Europe. Sometimes they were found guilty, sometimes the other party to the corruption charge found a way to make it all go away (more corruption). But when you do this all over the place the "it's the way things are done there" changes to "it's the way you do things". Every time MS is firing a couple of "rogue employees" because they got caught, not because they did it. And nothing changes at leadership level.

Their way of doing things certainly extends to the SEC and DOJ via more convoluted and corrupt influencing paths.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#94

Post by q1w2 »

vbezhenar wrote: post #46
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the bribes being directed by MS US or are these things taking place in overseas offices where customs are different? One example was Hungary --I imagine Ukraine and Nigeria too would have executives there who are part of the local culture where they do things differently. While the actions go afoul of US law, they may be in line with local customs culture and practices --that is harder to root out as now you are…

I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. I don't think that's necessary part of local culture. Of course in poor country officials with $200/month salary are happy to get $1000 gift for signing $100 000 agreement. Western companies are huge part of corruption source here. That's my opinion. I've heard that Ikea decided…

Same in India. In fact, public officials are paid very little with the expectation that they will supplement their income with bribes.

It's just absolutely normal to get literally anything done with a government office in almost any non-western country.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#95

Post by vmception »

aeternum wrote: post #42
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the bribes being directed by MS US or are these things taking place in overseas offices where customs are different? One example was Hungary --I imagine Ukraine and Nigeria too would have executives there who are part of the local culture where they do things differently. While the actions go afoul of US law, they may be in line with local customs culture and practices --that is harder to root out as now you are…

Yes, a bribe in one country is often seen as just the cost of doing business in another. In the US should tips be considered bribes? What if you tip at the beginning rather than the end in order to get better service?

I consider the associated penalty in the US as a bribe of public officials and cost of doing business. It takes a special level of hubris for Americans to go “noo, its different because we have due process”, when the user experience of a simpler bribe and slightly more convoluted bribe is 1:1

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#97

Post by enugu »

zelon88 wrote: post #81
igetspam wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in India once, I ran into a friend from Google who was out there trying to build a data center. Total coincidence that we were both there at the same time. I was there to hire and train for another company and he was there to break ground. He'd been there for week and they'd yet to start doing more than some bare minimums related to surveys and permits. I was surprised that he was there at all, given the curren…

I'm somewhat confused. Here in America when you want to accomplish something like open a new facility you basically force the potential municipalities into competing with each other to win your favor. A big company will go to all the Chambers of Commerce in a given area and basically say "we're considering opening a 100,000 Sq ft facility and hiring 300 people. What incentives can you offer me if I build it here?" Th…

One issue in India is that local governance at level of cities and towns is very weak(very few know who the equivalent of the mayor of their city is). The state(as in say US states, not federal level) government basically runs the show.

So, the state government does woo corporations with incentives to come to their state, but once the company reaches the level of permissions and deals with local officials who are looking for a cut(and in general, it is hard to fire these officials), the companies have to face the bribes process.

You can transfer bureaucrats even if you cant fire them(and this does happen though sometimes for the wrong reasons). But the bribe network also involves local politicians.

The intractable issue is that the journey to power of the top leaders in the state government involves taking support of local level leaders who either have some local support base or money which can be used for campaigning. In return, these local leaders demand a cut of bribe money which the top leader is obliged to allow or else risk losing their support.

Of course, this is not an all encompassing explanation and some leaders are much worse(corrupt far beyond any political necessity) and some better.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#98

Post by [deleted] »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #78
bnt wrote: post #40

Let's see how The Verge falls out of Microsoft's grace moving forward. The Verge had (what feels like) direct access to top MS execs for all product launches. I guess those days are over. Don't get me wrong, if this was picked up by the SEC or DOJ - I'd take it more seriously, but it sounds like accusations with no real proof.

Will MSN also fall out if Microsoft's grace? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/microsoft-allegedly-connec...

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#99

Post by president »

xbmcuser wrote: post #41

Western countries look the other way when their companies exploit poor countries. Then let the same corrupt money to be be taken out from those poor countries and hidden in their banks and property markets. Microsoft is not alone in this many other companies do the same. I personally feel the biggest hate from the west for the chinese so called road and belt initiative is not that China is exploiting these countries…

Well there is a geopolitical perspective to this as well right? Wouldn't want our biggest adversary to have strategic influence over these nations. Not to mention the potential intelligence capabilities from installing our equipment rather than theirs. Whether one country is more righteous than the other doesn't matter at this point - you should be rooting for the country that your survival depends on.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#100

Post by otterley »

missedthecue wrote: post #87
otterley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That suggests that human beings are substantially different outside our borders, and that ethics are not universal.

I would say that's more or less observably true

Go on...
Post reply on HN