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Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

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Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#51

Post by aeternum »

mistrial9 wrote: post #44
aeternum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a bribe in one country is often seen as just the cost of doing business in another. In the US should tips be considered bribes? What if you tip at the beginning rather than the end in order to get better service?

this is a formal fallacy - joining something substantial, serious and a matter of public law, to something personal, of little consequence, and governed at a local level. please reconsider this as this important public discussion evolves on YNews?

What is your definition of bribe then?

Keep in mind that in countries like Cambodia and Yemen, something like 70% of public companies receive bribes. It is very much common practice and culturally acceptable.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#52

Post by fallingknife »

vbezhenar wrote: post #46
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the bribes being directed by MS US or are these things taking place in overseas offices where customs are different? One example was Hungary --I imagine Ukraine and Nigeria too would have executives there who are part of the local culture where they do things differently. While the actions go afoul of US law, they may be in line with local customs culture and practices --that is harder to root out as now you are…

I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. I don't think that's necessary part of local culture. Of course in poor country officials with $200/month salary are happy to get $1000 gift for signing $100 000 agreement. Western companies are huge part of corruption source here. That's my opinion. I've heard that Ikea decided…

> I don't think that's necessary part of local culture

> Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here

Pick one

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#53

Post by digisign »

Reminds me of this great piece (and hn discussion) regarding corporate bribery during the Watergate years:

https://longreads.com/2018/11/20/the-second-half-of-watergat...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18498796

This reads as the modern chapter to the story.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#54

Post by [deleted] »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #35
lemoncookiechip wrote: post #6

> "What is a shock: This time around, the SEC and DOJ have both declined to investigate Microsoft over the same types of bribes in the Middle East and Africa. They acknowledged my evidence (which I submitted three times) yet did not take up the case, claiming that the current pandemic has prevented them from gathering more evidence from abroad—even though I have already provided documentation that I believe shows Mic…

I work in government, and I remember a story told to me by a federal official who was involved in the arrest of a former member of congress for bribery. The official told me that, essentially what the congressman did was illegal under federal law, but it was what you had to do in order to "do business" in "those parts of the world." I found that interesting. With what is going on today in the world, between nations c…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#55

Post by jimbob45 »

mistrial9 wrote: post #44
aeternum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a bribe in one country is often seen as just the cost of doing business in another. In the US should tips be considered bribes? What if you tip at the beginning rather than the end in order to get better service?

this is a formal fallacy - joining something substantial, serious and a matter of public law, to something personal, of little consequence, and governed at a local level. please reconsider this as this important public discussion evolves on YNews?

His example was fine and doesn’t stand alone. Who’s to say that other countries don’t consider US lobbying to be a form of bribery?

Realistically, no country is going to see their own bribery as actual bribery because no one wants to have to blatantly admit they’re the bad guy.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#56

Post by zht »

criddell wrote: post #50
VyseofArcadia wrote: post #3

Former Microsoftie here. After all the business ethics training videos I had to sit through, I am infuriated by this.

I read a story yesterday[1] how the policy inside Google is to cc their legal department on any emails that you think could make the company look bad in any future legal proceedings. As I understand it, this shields the email from discovery. Did you have similar guidelines inside Microsoft? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30760923

one thing that they teach you in this sort of training (never a Googler but been at at other big names) is that it is not a blank check to shield all emails from discovery by just cc-ing legal.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#57

Post by igetspam »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #35
lemoncookiechip wrote: post #6

> "What is a shock: This time around, the SEC and DOJ have both declined to investigate Microsoft over the same types of bribes in the Middle East and Africa. They acknowledged my evidence (which I submitted three times) yet did not take up the case, claiming that the current pandemic has prevented them from gathering more evidence from abroad—even though I have already provided documentation that I believe shows Mic…

I work in government, and I remember a story told to me by a federal official who was involved in the arrest of a former member of congress for bribery. The official told me that, essentially what the congressman did was illegal under federal law, but it was what you had to do in order to "do business" in "those parts of the world." I found that interesting. With what is going on today in the world, between nations c…

While in India once, I ran into a friend from Google who was out there trying to build a data center. Total coincidence that we were both there at the same time. I was there to hire and train for another company and he was there to break ground. He'd been there for week and they'd yet to start doing more than some bare minimums related to surveys and permits. I was surprised that he was there at all, given the current state of construction.

It turns out, they were way off target and they thought there was more progress already. Every time he spoke to anyone about permits and approvals, they'd say it was almost done and then there would be a delay. Amazon and Microsoft had been building in the area already and they had started the process much later. The difference? Google has a very strict policy on bribes. If you pay one, you won't be reimbursed and if they do and out, you won't be employed any longer. Microsoft and Amazon had no such policy and the conversations my friend had with his counterparts at those companies were pretty forthcoming about it. It's just how business is done there and if you don't play ball, you will have a hard time.

Of course they paid. You have to. If you don't, things will happen eventually but that timeline is unpredictable. I'm sure Google found ways to ethically encourage progress eventually.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#58

Post by chihuahua »

criddell wrote: post #50
VyseofArcadia wrote: post #3

Former Microsoftie here. After all the business ethics training videos I had to sit through, I am infuriated by this.

I read a story yesterday[1] how the policy inside Google is to cc their legal department on any emails that you think could make the company look bad in any future legal proceedings. As I understand it, this shields the email from discovery. Did you have similar guidelines inside Microsoft? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30760923

No, never.

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#59

Post by pempem »

fallingknife wrote: post #52
vbezhenar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. I don't think that's necessary part of local culture. Of course in poor country officials with $200/month salary are happy to get $1000 gift for signing $100 000 agreement. Western companies are huge part of corruption source here. That's my opinion. I've heard that Ikea decided…

> I don't think that's necessary part of local culture > Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here Pick one

The OP's comment feels like debating about origin. Is it due to local culture or the standard being set by external actors and their culture

Re: Microsoft is tied to hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign bribes

#60

Post by otterley »

fallingknife wrote: post #39
otterley wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think our laws should be tuned for maximum profit, or to reflect who we are, ethically and morally, as a society?

From a moral standpoint I think we have to accept how other societies are run and act accordingly, and our laws should end at our borders.

That suggests that human beings are substantially different outside our borders, and that ethics are not universal.
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