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Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

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Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#81

Post by hinkley »

ghostbust555 wrote: post #32

How are you saying this is carbon negative? Don't get me wrong the process is impressive and very cool, but the marketing around it just feels scammy. -5kg of carbon per m2? How? The lignin based binder absorbs more carbon from the air after it is placed into the road? I may be misreading but it seems like these numbers are based on the amount of carbon in the lignin itself (i.e. since it isn't burned which would be…

> -5kg of carbon per m2

That machine that chews up the road and lays it back down, how many kg of carbon per m2 does it burn?

I think too you have to compare the lifetime pollution of a bitumen patch versus the point source pollution of grinding a road up in the open air and putting it back down. There's going to be a ratio of resurface vs patch that has a lower cost than using either strategy exclusively. Especially if you use their chemistry for patches, instead of resurfacing.

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#82

Post by hinkley »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #15
RosanaAnaDana wrote: post #9

How do you propose to deal with fungi/ bacteria which have no issue digesting lignin? Likewise, what would your source of lignin material? How do the transportation and processing costs impact your ability to generate the parent materials for this process?

290 million years ago, Agaricomycetes fungi evolved the ability to breakdown lignin. That is the only time any species evolved this ability. And most rot is actually around the lignin. Amazing material.

That's for sure not going to work in rainforest environments, temperate (the PNW) or tropical, though it might work in drier or hotter climates.

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#83

Post by kroil »

nonameiguess wrote: post #68
bradfa wrote: post #62

This is neat! For your "SkyRoads" idea, as an alternative to satellite imagery (which I imagine is quite expensive for high resolution), have you considered partnering with the municipalities who are your customers to outfit their snowplows or garbage trucks with sensors to evaluate the road surface conditions? Since snowplows and garbage trucks have to regularly transit pretty much every public road in many parts of…

I noticed after purchase my new car warns me of uneven road surfaces looming ahead. As far as I know, it does this by crowd-sourcing from other vehicle owners that have opted into allowing their vehicles to collect this information and send it back to the automaker, which then distributes it to all the other cars. Given this could potentially use every vehicle on the road for data collection instead of just plows and…

Thanks both for very good ideas! We haven’t explored these ideas yet, but definitely interesting thoughts to consider as we build Sky Roads!

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#84

Post by kroil »

sshah1983 wrote: post #51
kroil wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, excited that you like it!

Some feedback on your “news” page. Near the bottom there is a section that says: “Are you ready to start with Vega template?”. Probably just an artifact and an easy fix.

Thanks for spotting this! we have now updated our website:)

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#85

Post by haakonzen »

haakonzen wrote: post #35
snewman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP says the lignin is "a waste product from the paper industry" and "majority of lignin is burnt". So it sounds like: currently, grow tree (pulling carbon from the atmosphere), process for paper industry, burn the resulting lignin, carbon returns to atmosphere. With this process: grow tree, process for paper industry, embed lignin in road material. If the lignin remains in the road more-or-less permanently (I asked a…

Yes exactly, that's how we think about it. We are using nature's own capture machine, trees... thanks for this clear explanation :)

Great thread, thanks all for the passion for this important topic. Just to clarify; we go from 7-10kg CO2 positive for traditional methods, to 5 kg negative pr m2 in two steps; Step one is we reduce emissions from value chain; incl. transport, & extraction when our Crusher recycles the road, which takes us to just above 1kg pr m2 (massive savings already from the traditional method). The remaining ca -6 kg is the effect of lignin - turning the calculation towards negative - and here debated in the thread with different opinions.

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#86

Post by haakonzen »

ghostbust555 wrote: post #76
haakonzen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes exactly, that's how we think about it. We are using nature's own capture machine, trees... thanks for this clear explanation :)

My problem is that a) the lignin will decay into C02 (what is the time frame on this? if its hundreds of years then maybe there is some merit here) but b) this implies that if a paper mill wanted to claim to be "carbon negative" they could simply build a warehouse and store lignin for a while before burning it. Furthermore, it implies that if I wanted to claim to be 1 million kgs carbon negative I can simply make a t…

Yes - time and degradation is key. All evidence we have as of today suggests close to none degradation of the lignin, and if/when eventually some degradation happens (yet to happen on the roads we have from 14y back), sequestration downwards in the soil, from the deep stabilized road layer we have bound with lignin. This is a very important area for us to pioneer research on going forward to get completely right, thanks for all the comments here, it will help us sharpen our efforts.

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#87

Post by kroil »

haakonzen wrote: post #86
ghostbust555 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that a) the lignin will decay into C02 (what is the time frame on this? if its hundreds of years then maybe there is some merit here) but b) this implies that if a paper mill wanted to claim to be "carbon negative" they could simply build a warehouse and store lignin for a while before burning it. Furthermore, it implies that if I wanted to claim to be 1 million kgs carbon negative I can simply make a t…

Yes - time and degradation is key. All evidence we have as of today suggests close to none degradation of the lignin, and if/when eventually some degradation happens (yet to happen on the roads we have from 14y back), sequestration downwards in the soil, from the deep stabilized road layer we have bound with lignin. This is a very important area for us to pioneer research on going forward to get completely right, tha…

Adding this one, we are spending a lot of time getting all the calculations on sequestrations right, here is some deeper information on this. https://carbonplan.org/research/ton-year-explainer

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#88

Post by hansarne »

tomsyouruncle wrote: post #67
haakonzen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes exactly, that's how we think about it. We are using nature's own capture machine, trees... thanks for this clear explanation :)

Maybe the concern others are expressing here can be thought of as the risk of double counting of carbon. If I run an industrial plant that's currently fuelled by burning waste lignin from the paper industry, and I decide to stop that and install some solar panels instead, it seems reasonable for me to claim that change is carbon negative (i.e. I've reduced carbon emissions). Now if CarbonCrusher comes along and buys…

This is a very fair question. We need to be mindful going forward in how we communicate. We can say that our Scope 3 emissions are negative, but scope 1 we are slightly positive (but still much lower than competition) Just to clarify; we go from 7-10kg CO2 positive for traditional methods, to 5 kg negative in two steps; Step one is we reduce emissions from transport, extraction etc because we have a better Crusher which recycles the road better, which takes us to just above 1kg pr m2 - massive savings already from the traditional method, and this could be counted mostly in Scope 1 or 2, some of it in 3 (reduced extraction). The remaining ca -6 kg is the effect of lignin - here debated in the thread and that we are saying is carbon negative. This is a scope 3 effect.

Thanks for pointing out! We are still a young company and need to work on our Scope 1-3 accounting :)

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#89

Post by hansarne »

lvs wrote: post #48
ghostbust555 wrote: post #32

How are you saying this is carbon negative? Don't get me wrong the process is impressive and very cool, but the marketing around it just feels scammy. -5kg of carbon per m2? How? The lignin based binder absorbs more carbon from the air after it is placed into the road? I may be misreading but it seems like these numbers are based on the amount of carbon in the lignin itself (i.e. since it isn't burned which would be…

This was my first reaction as well. I think the subtext is that the byproduct is currently being burned as a fuel source, which is common for things like sawdust in mills. So there's one aspect of this calculation that could be waaay off. If the mills that would have burned this byproduct in a boiler are selling it instead, they'll need another energy source for their boilers! If that energy source is a fossil fuel i…

Thanks for the comment. See calculation breakdown added in a few threads above. Some of our thoughts about the carbon negative part:

Paper mills captures CO2 from trees (that are sustainably harvested, more trees planted than harvested p.a.) of which parts of it is released after some of the lignin is burned (inefficiently) for fuel. If they stop burning lignin for fuel, they need other energy sources, and then the question is how the paper mill chooses to do this: - The mills can choose to burn fossil fuels, get a renewable source, or buy electricity from the grid. We will only source lignin from players serious about sustainability and green alternatives (industrial broilers could also use green hydrogen), alongside prioritising maximised energy efficient operations - Even if they get electricity from the grid, the world is moving forward and we’re luckily reaching a point where additional capacity in the grid is coming from renewables, while fossil is decreasing - boosting new renewable buildout more

What’s very important in what you point out is that when we expand our lignin supplier base, we need to be careful in selecting our suppliers, understanding their alternatives and understanding our Scope 3 emission effects to ensure it aligns with our mission of saving the planet :) And that's what we will do - ensure that this ends up on the right side.

Re: Launch HN: Carbon Crusher (YC W22) – Carbon Negative Roads

#90

Post by haakonzen »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #59
lvs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my first reaction as well. I think the subtext is that the byproduct is currently being burned as a fuel source, which is common for things like sawdust in mills. So there's one aspect of this calculation that could be waaay off. If the mills that would have burned this byproduct in a boiler are selling it instead, they'll need another energy source for their boilers! If that energy source is a fossil fuel i…

"Even if it were electric, most of the world does not remotely have as clean a grid as Norway's. So it would be some decades before any carbon advantage emerges." So.... you give up? This is stupid all-or-nothing absolutist thinking. I'm not saying OP YC is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but long-term sequestration of tree carbon is a carbon sink. Solar/Wind is at LCOE parity with natural gas turbine. It will…

We don't think we are the greatest thing since sliced bread either! But thanks for the encouragement and good points, we try and hope we can point the carbon needle a meaningful push the right way with the means at our disposal - and this we will keep on doing, now fed with more inputs & insight
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