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Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

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Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#531
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in Europe and I'd happily wear a jacket and a winter cap indoors. That's the theory. Here is probably what would happen in practice: all the people that have disposable income will swallow the cost. All the people who can't swallow the cost will pour in their last savings for a few more hours of warmth. Those who can't will start rioting, especially when their children start coughing. It's hard to tell your chi…

Thanks for the reply -- seems there's some misunderstandings. Details below. > people who can't swallow the cost will pour in their last savings for a few more hours of warmth Where I live, people aren't that short sighted. They bought all the toilet paper, planning months ahead. > Those who can't will start rioting, Eh, no. Not when they know the higher prices are for saving people in Ukraine. But if they didn't kno…

> Where I live, people aren't that short sighted. They bought all the toilet paper, planning months ahead.

Where you live, people chose to ensure that their comfort would be safeguarded, above all else, even if that lead to shortages for other people. "I don't care if I have too much and other people don't have enough, as long as I am confortable" was their motto. That has to tell you something.

> Not when they know the higher prices are for saving people in Ukraine.

Some might care, and some will accept that. Many won't. It's easy to accept some sort of disturbance when overall you don't need to worry about putting food on the table, or when a few less degrees means putting your thermostat on 21 instead of 23. When it means not being able to sleep because of cold, your view change quickly. And you start wondering why Ukraine just doesn't accept Putin offer, which after all does not sound that bad. Are people in Crimea that much worse ? And do you care so much ?

> It's easy.

No, it's not. Some will manage. Many won't.

> There would be subsidies for people on the countryside

So the solution is to subsidise people on the countryside, subsidise people needing vans or trucks, subsidise people working during nightshift, subsidise people living far away from a public transportation hub, subsidise people working far away from a transportation's hub, subsidise people who adapt to other people schedule, ... the list goes on. Creating a society where people depend on the state subsidies to just maintain their activity is not exactly sustainable.

> In Europe, there are more buses and subways, and fewer people have cars.

I live in Benelux. I can tell you that people are stopping to work because it does not financially make sense any more with current gas price. Today !. And Benelux is the poster child for a society built for bicycles, in practice it only works for 5~10% of the population. That number is increasing, but very slowly and we are going to hit a ceiling sooner rather than later. Anecdotal evidence, but in my social circle, almost everyone moved from "bicycle and public transport" to "cars only" in the past 5 years. Trigger points are : getting a child, changing jobs to something further away from their homes, promotion that gave access to a company car: when you are taxed > 50% taking the cash makes little sense. None are remotely considering letting go of their car, the value is simply too big to ignore. We are very far away from a carless world despite what politician want you to believe. And this is in a country that is usually considered to be a cycler dream

> Yes a bit. You could say that about the covid restrictions as well

You are acknowledging that what you are proposing puts the biggest amount of the weight on the poor. I don't find that acceptable: if we need to have measures, the more fragile part of the population should not be the one paying for it. The upper/lower class gap is a ticking time bomb. COVID has increased it. We need to find ways to close it, not extend it even more.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has the implication (intended or unintended) that there are situations where civilian casualties are perfectly acceptable. My only real point was that who the Good Guys and who the Bad Guys are in Ukraine are predetermined by the set of assumptions you start with. Everybody who was paying attention isn't that surprised by the invasion. It's not even a puzzle as to why Russia would do it. They spelled it…

Are you saying Russia is not a bad actor here? I'm not very convinced by your arguments.

All I'm saying is that they have legitimate national concerns here. There are distinct parallels to the Soviets trying to put missiles in Cuba. I don't have to be a big fan of Putin to recognize this.

Interestingly, at least I am making arguments. The media narrative of Putin simply being crazy is deeply unserious.

But if Russia is the bad actor here for invading a neighboring country that was attacking ethnic Russians in their territory and was flirting with joining a specific international coalition that was anti-Russian, what does that make the United States with all of our foreign adventurism?

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has the implication (intended or unintended) that there are situations where civilian casualties are perfectly acceptable. My only real point was that who the Good Guys and who the Bad Guys are in Ukraine are predetermined by the set of assumptions you start with. Everybody who was paying attention isn't that surprised by the invasion. It's not even a puzzle as to why Russia would do it. They spelled it…

Are you saying Russia is not a bad actor here? I'm not very convinced by your arguments.

Does “bad” have some technical definition here? Or are you just expressing dislike for the Russian regime and its actions?

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#534
post #515
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Russian society isn't anywhere near enthusiastic. That's why Putin has been searching for ever dumber excuses. Give him an actual indefensible incident to rally society around, and he'll get a lot more manpower. That could expand the war to Odessa and Moldova, and also 'retaliatory' cyberwar in the West. That's just absurd fanfic. Sending in untrained "manpower" with no equipment would not help advance Russian goals…

>That's just absurd fanfic. Sending in untrained "manpower" with no equipment would not help advance Russian goals. Some of them probably have military training, and quantity has a quality of its own. Regardless, Russia will not be able to subdue Ukraine, but there's nothing good coming from a more enthusiastic Russian society. >"Cyberwar"? Russia has never before needed any excuses to unleash wiper worms like NotPet…

> Regardless, Russia will not be able to subdue Ukraine, but there's nothing good coming from a more enthusiastic Russian society.

You are mistaken if you believe that Russian society isn't already enthusiastic. But this isn't a country with the warrior culture US has, dying for your country isn't cool in Russia, it just means that you were too poor and/or stupid to dodge the draft.

> There's a law for these things. That law allows sanctions but not attacking random civilians.

Which law is that?

> It also states that any possible harm to civilians must be incidental to the method

Many of the sanctions are specifically targeting civilians, civilian businesses.

> and that any harm be proportional to the possibility of achieving a legitimate goal (kicking Russia out).

Oh no, you're deeply mistaken. The sanctions will not go away even if Russia gets kicked out of Ukraine, they're very much intended to be punitive.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#535

It harms all of technology and by extension anyone who participates in the modern world. Just like any malware or other antisocial behaviour. It's a bit too indiscriminate to be a good protest, unless the thing you want to tear down IS the whole modern development process, which is based on the idea that most people are somewhat trustworthy and you can get the risk down to an acceptable level through the usual means.…

> It harms all of technology and by extension anyone who participates in the modern world. Just like any malware or other antisocial behaviour.

Sure but the problems are in order of significance are:

Putin invading Ukraine

Trusting things from NPM

This author adding malware to his package

I'm disappointed by the chorus of "keep politics out of tech" that seems so prevalent on HN, though not surprised. In general I'm in the "don't be a dick or cause problems" camp but when things are this completely broken I think anything goes. Countries are made up of people, people en masse can effect change, but often times the vibe of that one poem holds true, doesn't effect me so I don't care. It's wrong to stay silent. Every bit counts, it's only death by a thousand cuts if you actually make all of the thousand cuts, if everyone who's social responsibility to make a cut thinks "this doesn't matter anyway and i don't wanna be a dick" well... look around you at everyone who's got theirs and doesn't care.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are US companies still selling health products to Russian citizens. What is the expectation, to let them die? I fully understand that cars, fast food, liqueur or perfumes are things to stop selling, but essential products not. The average Ivan and Natasha should not receive a collective punishment (to death in some cases) for what some guy they may not have even voted for is doing.

Everyone selling pharmaceuticals should follow Pfizer's example and donate profits from sales in Russia: https://www.fastcompany.com/90731145/pfizer-is-donating-its-...

Why should other companies do that?

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#537

It harms all of technology and by extension anyone who participates in the modern world. Just like any malware or other antisocial behaviour. It's a bit too indiscriminate to be a good protest, unless the thing you want to tear down IS the whole modern development process, which is based on the idea that most people are somewhat trustworthy and you can get the risk down to an acceptable level through the usual means.…

> It harms all of technology and by extension anyone who participates in the modern world. Just like any malware or other antisocial behaviour. Sure but the problems are in order of significance are: Putin invading Ukraine Trusting things from NPM This author adding malware to his package I'm disappointed by the chorus of "keep politics out of tech" that seems so prevalent on HN, though not surprised. In general I'm…

> but when things are this completely broken I think anything goes

Why? If something doesn't help in any way, it shouldn't "go".

Putin's invasion of Urkaine doesn't justify doing other bad things, just because those bad things aren't quite as evil.

Something can be wrong without it beying literally invading another country. Putting malware in software is an example of that.

> but often times the vibe of that one poem holds true, doesn't effect me so I don't care.

The issue is not "not caring". The issue is weighting advantages and disadvantages and be responsible in one's actions.

Politics in tech should be rejected at least in all cases in which it doesn't lead to any advantage. The existence of worse things is irrelevant.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#538

On one hand, I don't want to be anywhere near protestware when it comes to my work or the tools I use. On the other hand, Javascript developers have a whole different culture than the developer circles I like to frequent. In npm-land, the societal expectations of quality and solemnity (for lack of a better word) are lower, and this kind of behaviour is even celebrated if it favors the "right cause". The last two case…

There is a very very very big difference between low quality and straight up malware, though.

I would never get angry because of a package which doesn't work properly. I didn't pay for it and I treat it as essentially a social media post. It should be assumed broken until proven functional.

But there is no "right cause" for spreading actual malware.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#539

Unpopular opinion: telling people they need to keep their protests non-disruptive is akin to telling them they can’t protest. “Protest in a way where I can ignore you.” Do I think “protestware” is a bad idea? Sure. Am I going to tell them to take their fight for human rights elsewhere? Not a chance.

> Not a chance.

Why not? Is every action legitimate as long as it uses "human rights" as an excuse?

Something doesn't become more ethical just because it's described as an act of protest.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#540
post #500
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an obvious difference between trying to hurt people and not trading with them yourself. If the distinction is difficult, there are laws to define this 'war crime' thing, you may wish to consult them. Also, Russia is relatively self-sufficient foodwise. There'll be shortages but no starvation. I'm sure though that if starvation was serious possiblity the West would exclude food imports.

> There's an obvious difference between trying to hurt people and not trading with them yourself Ah yes, because seizing Russian assets overseas is the same as "not trading with them".

Using another country's financial systems exposes you to significantly more counterparty risk, than using your own's.

Nobody was forcing Russia's ruling class to have all their money in overseas bank accounts.

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