‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#121

Post by kwhitefoot » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #77

AniseAbyss wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they should just eat the cost" No consumers will eat the cost of a bunch of boomers who want to keep using cheques. And here's what will happen: the non boomer consumers will choose a cheaper bank. So unless the government wants to pick up the bill any sensible company will tell those senior citizens to get with the times.

I still use cheques. I am definitely not a boomer. I also like paper statements, use cash and sometimes do paperwork on slices of dead trees. I work in technology enough to distrust it greatly. I had a multi-week saga one time because I used an electronic pdf signature instead of printing it out. I still get people freaked out when my resume is digitally signed in acrobat. I will stick to my dead tree banking.

Cheques were de facto abolished here so long ago that I can't remember the year I last used one, must be at least twenty years ago. The bank I have been using for more than the last ten years has never issued cheques.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#122

Post by ilamont » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

dgb23 wrote: post #62

ilamont wrote: post #8

The OECD published the results of a massive survey of member countries some years ago, titled "Skills Matter" ( https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926... ). The researchers defined 4 levels of technology proficiency, based on the types of tasks users can complete successfully. There was a very good summary published here ( https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/ ) and excerpted b…

I want to say that this is incredibly important. User interfaces are full of tradeoffs, where you have to make a choice or preferably you find a way to speak to both power users and "level 1" users. I would not have guessed that the statistics are _that_ bad. Even though most of the things I make are used by so called "non-technical" people - ignoring libraries and internal stuff tools. I just recently stopped a feat…

I would not have guessed that the statistics are _that_ bad.

That's a foundational problem for practically everyone involved in the creation of apps, software, websites, remote controls, ATMs, car consoles, etc. We make assumptions based on a very small sample of friends and peers, or extrapolate from the work of successful devs/designers/creators that a certain interface convention must be the right way to do it. We end up with hipster designs and frustrating interfaces that do a great disservice to a large portion of the population.

I posted this in the earlier "hamburger vs sausage icon" thread, but it's worth repeating: I am now my de facto tech support for two families (my own and my parents). I suspect many other HN users are in the same spot.

Every week I get calls or emails from my parents requesting help figuring out something that's not obvious from the UI, is accidentally triggered by users, deliberately activated (by the app) during a software update, or buried deep in some settings or submenu. This week's selection includes:

- Turning off yet again the annoying computer voice announcing any navigation or volume change on my parents' new Samsung TV (accessibility option, not sure why it turned on, but it required me visiting their home in person again to turn it off)

- Trying to help my father disable the "get Outlook for iOS" line that suddenly started to be appended to the bottom of his work emails.

- Helping my spouse troubleshoot a Shopify app feature that prevents >1 item being subtracted from inventory at a time

- Figuring out how to enable a social media save shared photos to her phone's photo album

- Explaining to my spouse that the three dots icon will show the remaining part of a truncated gmail message.

Yes, sometimes software is so complicated and feature rich these items have to buried deep in the settings. But often I find that the lack of obvious text labels for basic features and navigation items is the problem. Hamburger menus and the three dots "more actions" icon are a poor substitute for clear text labels and links.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#123

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

throwaway29303 wrote: post #76

inetknght wrote: post #24

It's not just old people with this problem. Many younger people who've been victims of online fraud, and now have trouble with online accounts, fall into the same category.

Interesting. Could you please give us more details about this?

There are a lot of recent changes that are really stupid.

To have an opened bussiness in Spain now, you need to provide the government an email. The excuse is that they want to save paper and stop using the standard post. So you need to pay for internet access. There are still 5 millions of people in Spain that live in rural areas where they don't have a good access to internet or don't have access at all. Though luck if you are one of they. They will put all important legal messages related with your activity in that mail.

So if you lose the access to that email (or is hacked for a month and some mails are removed silently) now you have a problem. Missing the latest legal change or government requirement means that now you are doing things illegally or that you are refusing to provide them data about your company that they asked for. There is a liability and legal consequences attached.

But the mail just will tell you (genius move) that the government wants to tell you "something", but not what. To retrieve this message you need to provide a phone number so they will send you a code by watsup necessary to access the info. So now you need to use a Facebook app, want it or not, because the government "cares for your privacy".

The government will not receive you now without a cite, arranged by phone or web, so you can't just walk into the building and show your ID card to ask what they want. If you think that you can just visit the gov web page, good luck with that. Your important messages are somewhere in that black hole, as unreachable as in the bottom of the ocean.

So you need a phone, but neither a normal desktop phone nor an old reliable Nokia will be accepted. You need to provide a mobile of the spy-phone type.

Because for example, to receive your covid passport you need to scan a barcode now. So you must have a camera in your phone and an OS able to install an run an external app to scan 3d barcodes. Do you want to know why asking for covid passport in bars was a failure? This.

And if you have an crash car and the police emits a traffic report, they will give you a ticket full of 3D Codes linking to the report, the extra info, the laws that apply, and your rights. No spy-phone?, you can't access to your info.

They could just provide a link, a short chain of characters that is the universal way to navigate internet, but not. That would be too easy.

I had been contacted by phone by somebody in the government encouraging me to use their services more. I agreed to provide a mail to receive more info and some weeks later received a mail, asking me to provide a phone in order to access the info (so they can call me asking for a mail maybe?).

So either you agree to have a phone that tracks all your life now, or you are treated as a sub-citizen with less rights.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#124

Post by deltarholamda » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #108

Macha wrote: post #3

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand th…

My bank (Bank of America) has this "dark pattern" where they try to switch you to paperless statements and billing every time you log into their website. Each time you log in you get a popup about paperless billing. If you click the "default" big button, you've opted in to it. You have to look for a little tiny text link to keep getting paper bills. I'm only 59, but without my paper bills, I've missed a few deadlines…

>I'm only 59, but without my paper bills, I've missed a few deadlines for credit card.

The article was talking about a 78 year old, and you're 59, but this is a problem that will not go away if it isn't addressed.

One day even Zoomers will be confused by needing to pay their bills using their wet-wired neurolink to an orbiting drone, and they'll be unable to because their tiny house doesn't have a v9000 laser alignment defragmenter. And then the bank will send a Terminator to their doorstep to deactivate their iLegs for non-payment.

Dealing with real people, that you have a prior relationship with, in paper (or parchment, or papyrus, or clay) has a robust tradition that everybody can understand or at the very least deal with. I don't mind technological solutions, but they had better be as robust as being able to call up Dave and having him work out the problem.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#125

Post by masswerk » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

brimble wrote: post #120

masswerk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also want to be clear: I'm not mocking anyone for lack of knowledge here. One of the persons in my sample is my father. He had an introduction to what must have been OS/2 Warp and even had a computer in the office, but never used it (there was still a secretary). In his retirement, he bought a book binder course on how to use an early version of Windows, but hadn't a computer to try it on his own, so this was yet…

> Also, the "magical" appearance and disappearance of these items doesn't help the ability to form a stable mental model. I've observed that any kind of "mode" that isn't extremely clear, visually is terrible for these sorts of folks (and, as with most things that give them trouble, are really terrible for everyone, we're just better at working past it than they are). Tabs that aren't extremely visually clear will le…

> and, as with most things that give them trouble, are really terrible for everyone, we're just better at working past it than they are

A nice example are non-modal security dialogs in web browsers: You initiate an action, which requires expressed acknowledgement to complete. The dialog is blocking, therefor requiring immediate response for the task not to stall. However, there's just a narrow ribbon sitting at the top of the content window waiting to be either acknowledged (probably requiring to initiate said task anew) or to be eventually dismissed by clicking its close button. This isn't natural to anyone, nor does it go with the flow of events, nor does it disclose itself easily to the uninitiated, nor does the addition of yet another element in the vertical flow of layout communicate the urgency and why the task is currently failing. – It's understandable that some users will give up at this instant and will therefor be locked out from using certain applications.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#126

Post by Arrath » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #93

pndy wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And do it opt in of course. In my case, ISP charges you extra if you decide to keep the paper bills instead going for "eco bill" pdf file send by an email; same goes if you decide to opt-out from company selling your number elsewhere. Last time while getting new contract, 3 different people at local company's office tried to convince me that I can "win some fantastic rewards" if I decide to let them do with my numb…

In my case, ISP charges you extra if you decide to keep the paper bills I'm old enough to remember when banks and other companies would charge extra for the privilege of paying online.

Oh they still do. Some of them, anyway. Like my electric utility.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#127

Post by justin66 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

locooon wrote: post #103

justin66 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I can tell, barring some very special circumstances, individuals never need to keep such records. This is blatantly false. Unless paying taxes is a "very special circumstance." People don't want these records at hand purely for their own amusement, which seems to be the assumption you're operating under here.

In what situation will an individual need to supply their utility bills to the taxman during an audit? > This is blatantly false. Unless paying taxes is a "very special circumstance." I’ve certainly never needed to pull up my utility bills while paying taxes as a private person. It really feels like you’re just coming up with stuff, utility bills aren’t normally tax deductible (unless you are a business). There’s no…

Wow, you really created an account to make that comment?

> In what situation will an individual need to supply their utility bills to the taxman during an audit?

The bills would be useful if they expensed some of those payments, deducted them, or whatever. With a record number of people working from home, some portion of those expenses might be tax deductible for some people, some people might receive reimbursements from an employer, etc.

(nobody said anything about an audit)

> I’ve certainly never needed to pull up my utility bills while paying taxes as a private person.

I think we can all agree that if you have never done this, it's unthinkable that anyone would ever do this.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#128

Post by sp332 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #26

naoqj wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that when I become an elder I will keep up with the progress of the world so I don't become a burden to others.

The generation that is currently "elderly" is the generation that coined the phrase "Don't trust anyone over 30" [1]. How'd that work out for them? You will not be the one who transcends being old. Especially in the way that this story involves physical infirmity. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Weinberg#%22Don't_trust_a...

How'd that work out for them?

Still applies. Many of them will tell you so. I'm 35 and it seems like good advice to me.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#129

Post by missedthecue » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #65

Macha wrote: post #3

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand th…

Doing that by email is a real dick move. They should send a letter with the last bill. And do it opt in of course. Old people are exactly the type of people that would carefully study letters that come in the post. Unlike people my age that would bin anything that comes with the bill thinking it's probably just commercial crap. But of course this is precisely the reason they do it by email. Dark pattern..

Precisely the reason? Is it to the phone company's advantage to lose a paying customer?

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#130

Post by masswerk » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

masswerk wrote: post #25

ilamont wrote: post #8

The OECD published the results of a massive survey of member countries some years ago, titled "Skills Matter" ( https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926... ). The researchers defined 4 levels of technology proficiency, based on the types of tasks users can complete successfully. There was a very good summary published here ( https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/ ) and excerpted b…

Something I observe with people new to computing at an old age: They try to reduce any task to "below level 1", aiming at writing this down as a sequence of atomic steps of a recipe. There is no confidence in being able to remember how a task is to be achieved at any future point. There is also no confidence and therefor no interest in acquiring the basic grammar of user interfaces. (E.g., double-clicking is not link…

Regarding things like 2FA: This is also a matter of what might be reasonable to one group isn't necessarily reasonable to another group. Let's imagine this the other way round: let's say, Apple were to install a set of different colored hand cranks in front of each house, requiring users to crank a specific set of them to initiate certain interactions. While someone who was once accustomed to fetch water from a hand pump at the back of the house may adopt easily to such a scheme, you would probably be like, "scr$w you, let's go back to 1990s pagers, it's mostly about insert-preferred-messaging-app-of-the-season anyway." You wouldn't even try to memorize these cranking schemes (and ADHD may not help particularly in doing so).