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‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

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61–70 of 164 posts

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#61
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first mortgage bill of the year typically includes tax statements for the prior year. Etc.

I thought this thread was about utility bills, but okay, I’ll play along with your incredibly specific example. Is this a weird american thing? At least here in the UK mortgage interest deductions are only applicable to businesses.

It is an American thing, and it's often more than just mortgage interest, as it is standard to have our property taxes and insurance(s) escrowed through the mortgage as well.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#62
post #8

The OECD published the results of a massive survey of member countries some years ago, titled "Skills Matter" ( https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926... ). The researchers defined 4 levels of technology proficiency, based on the types of tasks users can complete successfully. There was a very good summary published here ( https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/ ) and excerpted b…

I want to say that this is incredibly important. User interfaces are full of tradeoffs, where you have to make a choice or preferably you find a way to speak to both power users and "level 1" users.

I would not have guessed that the statistics are _that_ bad. Even though most of the things I make are used by so called "non-technical" people - ignoring libraries and internal stuff tools. I just recently stopped a feature suggestion because we probed our client about the behavior and technical proficiency of their users. In SMBs it isn't even unusual that there is only a couple of or even just one technically literate person that does most of the computer work.

My take on this is as a developer is that we can pretty much ignore the 26% that doesn't use computers and the "below level 1"-ers except with pretty radical R&D. This might be a job for the Alan Kays and Bret Victors.

The assumptions about the rest of the users should probably be lowered drastically. Even stuff like the pancake/burger menu icon is on the table here (recently discussed on HN as being an UX-anti pattern). There is a book I want to read called "Calm Technology"[0], which is in part about accessibility but mostly about attention and the mental overhead associated with using computers.

[0] https://calmtech.com/

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#63
post #51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bizarre idea. Scammers printing scam letters can just as easily print fake postmarks. > When you have to pay the postage and printing costs, it is far less attractive to throw out 10.000 scam mailings, because the ROI is quite likely negative Try to do think about the math here. What kind of scam mail are you sending to reach such bad ROI? Let’s imagine these are fake utility bills for around 50 euros and t…

> This is a bizarre idea. > Scammers printing scam letters can just as easily print fake postmarks. -While that is true, it is impractical on at least a couple of levels: a) You need to get that fake mail into the postal system, somehow - and do so in a way which escapes attention. b) (The worrying bit, if you're a scammer) - You've just gone from attempted fraud (sending out scam emails) to defrauding the postal ser…

> a) You need to get that fake mail into the postal system, somehow - and do so in a way which escapes attention

You pay some guy to drive around and stuff your envelopes into various post boxes 500-1000 at a time.

Or just find an insider at the postal service of your choice, crime forums are full of people offering this.

If you’re capable of accepting payments for fake bills, you already have people walking into banks with fake IDs to open accounts. Sending out letters is significantly less complex.

> b) (The worrying bit, if you're a scammer) - You've just gone from attempted fraud (sending out scam emails) to defrauding the postal service of whatever country you try to pull this one off in; the authorities are quite likely to take a dim view of your efforts.

Probably not, considering the amount of crimes involved in accepting money transfers to a drop account created with fake documents and the subsequent money laundering.

Defrauding the postal service is small potatoes.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#64
post #36
post #3

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand th…

I recently endured a Kafka-esque nightmare with my bank. I had this personal VISA card for several years but I rarely used it because I also have a Mastercard that I prefer. Anyway, two years ago when I started my current venture I opened a business bank account with my preferred bank for business banking (same bank I had the personal VISA through), so I applied for a business VISA. At the same time, I told them I wa…

I had a couple of minor bills like this with companies I barely ever deal with, and at one point I bothered to look at my credit rating. The material impact of a few unpaid items was to drop the bullshit FICO rating from 840 to 810.

As in not worth my time at all to fix some company's internal fuckups versus wait a few years for nobody else to care either.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#65
post #3

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand th…

Doing that by email is a real dick move. They should send a letter with the last bill. And do it opt in of course.

Old people are exactly the type of people that would carefully study letters that come in the post. Unlike people my age that would bin anything that comes with the bill thinking it's probably just commercial crap.

But of course this is precisely the reason they do it by email. Dark pattern..

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#66
post #48

Last year my bank, Scotiabank, increased its profits be from $6 billion the previous year, to $9 billion. And while they can be helpful, try calling them on the phone. A painful process to deter you from calling them. I had to call them yesterday. When I finally got to talk to a human, she took my number for a call back, I am still waiting . I have no idea how the elderly deal with this blatant corporate greed.

Just last week a friend who worked for a bank like that said, "If you don't like it, just buy the stock." His rationale was if they can get away with crap service and high service charges, along with being defacto permanent government oligopolies, any savings of yours that you can convert into bank stock will pay out multiples on what you pay in fees and irritation.

It just encourages them, but that's Canada, market economics don't apply here.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I observe with people new to computing at an old age: They try to reduce any task to "below level 1", aiming at writing this down as a sequence of atomic steps of a recipe. There is no confidence in being able to remember how a task is to be achieved at any future point. There is also no confidence and therefor no interest in acquiring the basic grammar of user interfaces. (E.g., double-clicking is not link…

This was my experience for years when I worked in tech support. It seemed like every computer task was just a list of steps. They had to ask "do I left-click, or right-click" on every step, because they had developed no "theory" for what a left-click is, and why you'd use it vs. a right-click. It seemed like if they ever missed a step, or a step required them to deviate from their plan, they were entirely lost. I hav…

> I also want to be clear: I'm not mocking anyone for lack of knowledge here.

One of the persons in my sample is my father. He had an introduction to what must have been OS/2 Warp and even had a computer in the office, but never used it (there was still a secretary). In his retirement, he bought a book binder course on how to use an early version of Windows, but hadn't a computer to try it on his own, so this was yet again theoretical and mostly forgotten. At around 80, he finally acquired a laptop, but 10 years later he's essentially at the level described above. (Windows nowadays changing some of its metaphors on a regular basis, doesn't help.) On the other hand, at the age of 90, he's still able to adopt to the interface of a new camera. Partly, because camera UIs tend to be designed more on the principle of providing the least of an interference and mental load as possible, but also because he loves photography.

It is important to note that computing isn't a prime occupation for this generation: Yes, it's something they could do, yes, there may be interesting things, they try to participate, but overall, they can do without it and discovery is difficult, therefor, there's never an ultimate urge to adopt. Conversely, they are reduced to the most basic skill level, which doesn't especially promote interest, which in turn hinders progress. You could say, computers are inverse gamification devices for them. This is something to keep in mind, when designing accessible operations.

Edit: Adding alleged ease-of-access layers doesn't help. E.g., as may be inferred from the above, archiving and reviewing photos is a favorite occupation on the computer. Transferring and navigating stored photos is complex in its own and eventually mastered to a certain degree. (Still, I keep fixing the same míshaps.) However, adding layers like camera roll, moments or automatic links in the favorites bar, which eventually obscure the custom links placed for ease of access, doesn't help at all. On the contrary, it's just an opaque distraction and obstruction, which will be ignored at best, but will add to the confusion at least, because of their inherent time-based instability in what is supposed to be a stable layer of access. (Also, the "magical" appearance and disappearance of these items doesn't help the ability to form a stable mental model.) Don't do this, provide functionality like this as an option only. (Or, at least, have options to disable this.)

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#68
post #3

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand th…

> She either did not understand the implications of this or missed the email, and is of the age where she would not remember when exactly she had last paid which bill. So without a paper bill to remind her, and her payment method being via the post office rather than the utility provider having billing details on record, she ended up not paying 3 months of bills and being cut off.

That's so horribly absurd - have just left a utility company, we would send you paper notices leading up to shut-off regardless of paperless opt-in status. Having a customer without water was considered far worse than wasting a little extra litter in the grand-scheme.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#69
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this thread was about utility bills, but okay, I’ll play along with your incredibly specific example. Is this a weird american thing? At least here in the UK mortgage interest deductions are only applicable to businesses.

> I thought this thread was about utility bills It was, which is why your comment starting with "As a business" was so bizarrely off-topic. > Is this a weird american thing? At least here in the UK mortgage interest deductions are only applicable to businesses. Yes. American homeowners can under most circumstances treat their mortage interest payments as tax deductable.

> It was, which is why your comment starting with "As a business" was so bizarrely off-topic.

What do you mean by off-topic? Businesses receive utility bills too, and might genuinely be required to keep records of those.

As far as I can tell, barring some very special circumstances, individuals never need to keep such records.

Re: ‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

#70
post #3

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand th…

"they should just eat the cost" No consumers will eat the cost of a bunch of boomers who want to keep using cheques. And here's what will happen: the non boomer consumers will choose a cheaper bank. So unless the government wants to pick up the bill any sensible company will tell those senior citizens to get with the times.

Checks are awesome - I use them all the time and I'm at least a third of the age of the elderly. Accessibility is huge to think about especially with "requireables" like the banks, and so it's just good practice and the right thing to do to think about the elderly and edge cases for folks who don't do email/smartphones.

It pays to have empathy to all cross sections of society, not just the ones that are the most visible. :)

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