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The end of the nice GTK button

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Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#281

Post by _2paq »

jms55 wrote: post #100

A lot of comments in this thread are negative. As a developer using GTK4 and libadwaita, and as a user that uses gnome, I really like the changes. GTK4 brings some much needed changes, and the major bugs like listview scrolling being broken or bad text rendering on non-hidpi displays suck, but both have people working on fixing them. Libadwaita is a huge improvement, and makes it way easier to build good apps. As for…

> or bad text rendering on non-hidpi displays suck, but both have people working on fixing them.

It wasn't even acknowledged as a bug in the beginning, even after screenshots with clear signs of regression were posted. Matthias Clasen closed the bug report saying it wasn't a bug but an intended feature. There's really no appropriate words to describe such behaviour, which is fairly common on the GNOME issue tracker, besides calling it "wilfully dense" or "trollish".

> As for themes, I quite like the new libadwaita theme, and prefer it to the default GTK theme. You're free to disagree, but you can't say your opinion is correct, nor can I.

Sure, but in that case, an officially supported method to change the theme should be provided in case I don't agree with your choice. Apparently, GNOME tweak tool was never supported, is not supported, and will never be supported. For now, GTK_THEME is being presented as an alternative but do you expect me to close all of my programs and relogin to my session to change my theme? Should I create wrapper shell scripts for all of my GTK apps?

> Keep in mind that libadwaita is an optional library _specifically for gnome apps_. If you don't like gnome, don't use libadwaita.

The fact that there are no non-trivial GTK4 apps out there that don't use libadwaita or libgranite tells me what I need to know. Even LibreOffice uses libadwaita now. Is LibreOffice a GNOME app?

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#282

Post by happymellon »

nojs wrote: post #272
Flow wrote: post #270

I really miss a consistent user experience. A core idea that I as a user can rely on to predict how a new app will work. I was in awe when I discovered as a kid that user interface were a research area. Things like Fitt's Law and so on. It was not just opinion. Today I get the feeling it's mostly just opinion. Either the designer's opinion or the wish to copy the look of something. Whenever I see a hamburger menu I s…

> Whenever I see a hamburger menu I silently think "Here someone has given up" Can you explain what you don’t like about hamburger menus?

Is a dumpster of features, you have no idea what you'll find in there.

Has someone hidden the zoom buttons in there? How about print? Perhaps that's also where save is, or tab colour? Most things in the hamburger menu are completely unrelated but exist for the removal of context. Button outlines so you have no idea what you can and cannot click on as well, which is mentioned in the fine article, are all modern design patterns. Looks over functionality.

Hamburger menu is just peak modern menus. Lazy.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#283

Post by happymellon »

grishka wrote: post #269
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #15

I agree 100% with the author, the old GTK button was gorgeous, it will be missed. > I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. This is one of my biggest complaints with the super flat modern designs. Many widgets lost their skeuomorphic depth, which encoded a lot if visual information (the clickabili…

Borderless buttons to have the right to exist, but you should be very careful with their use. For example, take this UI I made recently: https://mastodon.social/@grishka/107998100334356147 , 2nd screenshot. The button to decline invitation looks like a link (same color) and it's next to a real button. No one would ever get confused by this, it's pretty clear it's clickable. But a black word in a larger font among bla…

It's bold, so that helps. I assume you are able to click the group name and test user since they are also bold?

I would still prefer a border around the button as I'm not sure what you gain by removing it, but at least you provide hints.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#284

Post by matsemann »

johnqian wrote: post #264

I'm going to take a risk here and say that I'm a designer who generally likes flat design. I see a lot of hate here against flat design, and it makes sense. A lot of designers abuse it, making their UIs ambiguous. It's probably true that if flat design was never conceived, UIs would be less confusing on average. But it's clearly possible to do flat design well. iOS is mostly flat, but it's quite beautiful and user fr…

I disagree on iOS. Give an iPhone to someone never having used one before, and I'm sure they won't even be able to unlock it.

I almost cringe when I see UX people with iPhones. Yes, it's esthetically pleasing, but please don't take too much inspiration from the way things work.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#285

Post by stjohnswarts »

JNRowe wrote: post #114
bqmjjx0kac wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regret to inform you that the latest release of `find` has been renamed to [magnifying glass emoji]. For example, # Find directories the old way. find . -type d # The cool new way! [magnifying glass emoji] . -[keyboard] [folder emoji] Edit: HN appears to strip emojis, so my new edited comment doesn't pack the same punch.

You jest, but I'm not sure that is a bad idea. bash/zsh seem happy with emojis as function/alias names, and I can input emojis easy enough. In fact some emojis are easier to type in my chosen layout than the string necessary to disambiguate completion for some commands. Thanks for the idea, and I'll redirect co-worker scorn at U+1F984 for `git push` towards you ;) Edit to add : Using emoji for commands/arguments is a…

Had a developer change some config file names to emoji based file names. Boss thought his computer was broken when he took a look at some output txt file. He wasn't amused even though it was April 1.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#286

Post by audidude »

jchw wrote: post #221
hedora wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't the font renderer render a straight line? Like sans serif "I”? The font rasterizer already exists (unless it is a bitmap font UI, but those aren't common any more). How does adding additional mechanisms make for a simpler or cleaner rendering pipeline?

The font rasterizer is a massive hack in modern UIs. Subpixel rendering is a serious pain in the ass. When you render text using subpixel rendering, you render the actual vectors at 3x the spatial resolution. But, not simply as if the vectors were 3x wider, because that would look too sharp: it needs to render as if there was 3x as many pixels, which is different. Then there’s compositing. Normal layers can be compos…

> some software have started implementing SDFs for font scaling

My "wip/chergert/glyphy" branch of GTK 4 does rendering using https://github.com/behdad/glyphy which uses fields to create encoded arc lists and are uploaded to the GPU in texture atlases. The shaders then use that data to render the glyph at any scale/offset.

Some work is still needed to land this in GTK 4, particularly around path simplification (mostly done) and slight hinting (probably will land in harfbuzz).

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#287

Post by FeepingCreature »

chefandy wrote: post #267
RachelF wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had to explain to people tons of times that the random word in the UI somewhere in an application is actually a button they can press to invoke an action. Exactly this. I often help others use computers and phones. In the old days it was easy to see what could be clicked. Now input and output look the same. It makes it harder to use. In many ways it is a victory of style over substance - UI's are now designe…

> In many ways it is a victory of style over substance - UI's are now designed by the same crowd who designs high fashion, that is clothes not designed to be worn but to be gawked at. Oh? Where do the Gnome designers list their runway appearances on their site? https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/ I'm an art-school educated designer, decade+ full-time web developer for over a decade and regular FOSS contributor for about a…

> UI designer proposing changes is received with hostility

> solicited the wrong kind of designers

This points to me that the root problem is that we can't tell what kind is the wrong kind. It's a trust issue, but also a competence legibility issue.

That said-

> referred to developers and their work with the same glib contempt

Uh yeah? Developers absolutely refer to developers with glib contempt.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#288

Post by stjohnswarts »

jeroenhd wrote: post #61
dv_dt wrote: post #49

Can I also mourn the loss of title bars as I carefully hunt for a spot to grab a window to move it?

For what it's worth, I recently discovered that I can move windows on GNOME by holding down the Windows/super key and dragging. It's a small thing but it's actually quite nice.

the ones for resizing and moving are quite handy indeed. Learn them. Sometimes windows have bugs and get bizarrely huge and this is a way to get them back down to a reasonable size

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#289

Post by stjohnswarts »

akdor1154 wrote: post #172
jms55 wrote: post #100

A lot of comments in this thread are negative. As a developer using GTK4 and libadwaita, and as a user that uses gnome, I really like the changes. GTK4 brings some much needed changes, and the major bugs like listview scrolling being broken or bad text rendering on non-hidpi displays suck, but both have people working on fixing them. Libadwaita is a huge improvement, and makes it way easier to build good apps. As for…

> As for themes, I quite like the new libadwaita theme, and prefer it to the default GTK theme. You're free to disagree, but you can't say your opinion is correct, nor can I. I agree... but the gnome devs are directly telling me my opinion is incorrect, by removing the ability for me to change my apps i use to a theme I like. Oh wait sorry, i guess i should have said gnome's apps.

You have to admit that is more work though, and devs on a limited size team like the gnome developers have to draw the line at some point.

Re: The end of the nice GTK button

#290

Post by stjohnswarts »

lmm wrote: post #94
jandrese wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over 2/3 of regular users are still using 1080p[1]. If your design looks bad on FHD then it looks bad to most people. [1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

Right, but it looks good on the designer's screen. That's the issue.

Just like programmers should have to run their apps on 10 year old computers and feel the pain, so should designers have to try their work on 10 year old monitors.
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