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Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

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Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#511

Post by geoka9 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #496
geoka9 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to ban minority languages from schools Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: _ https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2020/08/01/ukraines-russian-lan... If Ukraine hasn't been the target of Russian territorial expansionism, we could argue that this law is overreaching.…

> Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: Really? Reading your source it seems that it explicitly states "Ukrainian as the only means of instruction in schools after the primary division." Saying that this only applies to "state-funded schools" may be true, but y…

Again, the Euromaidan happened in 2014.

This law was passed in 2017, 3 years after the Euromaidan, because Russia invaded Ukraine giving the mere existence of the Russian language in Ukraine as the reason for the invasion.

> And we wonder why people in Crimea wanted to leave after Euromaidan... > By eliminating Russian speaking people in Ukraine? Not a great justification.

I see. I made the mistake of assuming you were arguing in good faith. Won't happen again; have a nice day!

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#512

Post by whimsicalism »

geoka9 wrote: post #511
whimsicalism wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: Really? Reading your source it seems that it explicitly states "Ukrainian as the only means of instruction in schools after the primary division." Saying that this only applies to "state-funded schools" may be true, but y…

Again, the Euromaidan happened in 2014. This law was passed in 2017, 3 years after the Euromaidan, because Russia invaded Ukraine giving the mere existence of the Russian language in Ukraine as the reason for the invasion. > And we wonder why people in Crimea wanted to leave after Euromaidan... > By eliminating Russian speaking people in Ukraine? Not a great justification. I see. I made the mistake of assuming you we…

> This law was passed in 2017, 3 years after the Euromaidan, because Russia invaded Ukraine giving the mere existence of the Russian language in Ukraine as the reason for the invasion.

Russia also invaded Ukraine in 2014. The parliament voted to ban Russian language in schools immediately after 2014, it was only vetoed by the president at the time.

> I see. I made the mistake of assuming you were arguing in good faith. Won't happen again; have a nice day!

I am arguing in good faith - you claimed that the reason they stopped teaching Russian in schools was due to the Russian invasion, but there is ample evidence of attempts to do this prior to the Russian invasion.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#513

Post by ksec »

zucker42 wrote: post #152
ksec wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pretty much summarise what is wrong with the title. It is not "Protestware" that harms open source. It is politics and ideology harms open source. And the rate things are going may be Open Source will not only be split between permissive and copyleft, but progressive and libreRight. Edit: Now I remember Douglas Crockford's "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil." license. I wonder if there are still any o…

> It is politics and ideology harms open source. The movement towards free and open source software was created in no small part do to activists with a very strong ideology. Open source would not exist to the same extent without the ideology espoused by the FSF. The problem is that abandoning a key tenant of the free software movement, neutrality towards different uses (part of freedom 0 of the free software definiti…

Thanks. Brilliant response I will save ( or Steal it ) it next time the conversation comes up.... which is increasingly common in Open Source.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#514

Post by dragonwriter »

whimsicalism wrote: post #496
geoka9 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to ban minority languages from schools Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: _ https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2020/08/01/ukraines-russian-lan... If Ukraine hasn't been the target of Russian territorial expansionism, we could argue that this law is overreaching.…

> Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: Really? Reading your source it seems that it explicitly states "Ukrainian as the only means of instruction in schools after the primary division." Saying that this only applies to "state-funded schools" may be true, but y…

> Seems from reading this that Russian is specifically targeted and proscribed from being taught in schools

Seems to me you cited the part where it is explicitly allowed to be taught in schools, both private and public, contradicting your claim that it is “proscribed from being taught in schools”.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#515

Post by yyyk »

FDSGSG wrote: post #502
yyyk wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you believe that node-ipc would do this but the current vastly more impactful sanctions regime wont? >There's no other kind of "massive war" he could launch at this point. Russian society isn't anywhere near enthusiastic. That's why Putin has been searching for ever dumber excuses. Give him an actual indefensible incident to rally society around, and he'll get a lot more manpower. That could expand the war to Ode…

>Russian society isn't anywhere near enthusiastic. That's why Putin has been searching for ever dumber excuses. Give him an actual indefensible incident to rally society around, and he'll get a lot more manpower. That could expand the war to Odessa and Moldova, and also 'retaliatory' cyberwar in the West. That's just absurd fanfic. Sending in untrained "manpower" with no equipment would not help advance Russian goals…

>That's just absurd fanfic. Sending in untrained "manpower" with no equipment would not help advance Russian goals.

Some of them probably have military training, and quantity has a quality of its own. Regardless, Russia will not be able to subdue Ukraine, but there's nothing good coming from a more enthusiastic Russian society.

>"Cyberwar"? Russia has never before needed any excuses to unleash wiper worms like NotPetya onto the whole world.

Our tolerance for that was absurd. As is our tolerance for this action.

>Exactly like sanctions. Are you against sanctions too? If not, how do you explain that inconsistency?

I'm for sanctions. It's not inconsistent. There's a law for these things. That law allows sanctions but not attacking random civilians. It also prefers actions by legitimate authorities and not random vigilants. It also states that any possible harm to civilians must be incidental to the method, and that any harm be proportional to the possibility of achieving a legitimate goal (kicking Russia out).

This action was by a random person (not even an Ukrainian), unauthorized by anyone (definitely not any Ukrainian authority), and was at best counterproductive (nobody has given me any way where this advances kicking Russia out), so any possibility of civilian harm is criminal.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#516

Post by yyyk »

FDSGSG wrote: post #500
yyyk wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an obvious difference between trying to hurt people and not trading with them yourself. If the distinction is difficult, there are laws to define this 'war crime' thing, you may wish to consult them. Also, Russia is relatively self-sufficient foodwise. There'll be shortages but no starvation. I'm sure though that if starvation was serious possiblity the West would exclude food imports.

> There's an obvious difference between trying to hurt people and not trading with them yourself Ah yes, because seizing Russian assets overseas is the same as "not trading with them".

>Ah yes, because seizing Russian assets overseas is the same as "not trading with them".

Your bank account is held under terms. There are cases where freezing withdrawals is allowed.

If you wish to avoid that, you are entitled to store your money under your mattress (or use the latest crypto fad and be subject to absurd exchange rate variations).

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#517

Post by DeathArrow »

BaronVonSteuben wrote: post #311
DeathArrow wrote: post #8

Open source malware? That's a new one!

Perhaps I'm overthinking this, but open source malware is absolutely not new. It's been around basically as long as the internet has (and I mean pre-www). You could even argue that it pre-exists the internet since phone phreakers were sharing "code" earlier than that.

That's true that malware source code was available in the open even before large scale Internet access. But no one made a fuss about licensing, "freedom", philosophy and the authors were mostly unknown.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#518

Post by cthulha »

seanw444 wrote: post #4

I just don't understand what the node-ipc dev was expecting when he did that. "Hm, maybe if I put malware into a community-trusted module that destroys files of people in a certain geopolitical region, the countless innocent citizens that are affected will realize what they did wrong! Wait, who am I actually targeting again?"

How about:

“Actors in this geopolitical region are killing people and destroying infrastructure, and I am going to do everything in my power to disrupt them”

“If more people stood up like this, then either bad actors would have to abandon open-source and pay a dramatic penalty in cost and speed of IT, or they would have to pay open-source maintainers to ensure the . Either way is a win”

“People who don’t like this don’t share my values - they can prioritize the lives of Ukrainians and get on board, or they can maintain a project and provide an alternative, or they can get out of my way while I do something I think is very important”

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#519

Post by raxxorrax »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #403
raxxorrax wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes everything political? Of course something I do or say can influence others, but it is still not political in the vast majority of instances. Not even non-significantly. Political action is shaping my environment to my desire. Via compromise or war perhaps. What is your definition of it that it applies to everything?

That's just action. What makes it political is if happens to have an effect outside of your home. (And technically even those restricted to the inside will usually end up having some sort of effect outside of your home.)

Hm, I disagree that any effect has to be political. If so the word seems to have little intrinsic meaning.

Re: Open source ‘protestware’ harms Open Source

#520

Post by jokethrowaway »

baryphonic wrote: post #262

To be honest, I'm annoyed by the benign protestware messages when they start to get in the way of using the software, particularly on mobile. I was looking at the isomorphic git documentation the other day, and noticed that their "#BlackLivesMatter #DefundThePolice" banner scrolls under the rest of the content, leaving this annoying gap that takes up screen real estate, especially in landscape mode on a phone.[0] Wha…

The world is full of people who need to virtue signal even if they don't care or do anything else about the cause.
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