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Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#31

Post by WelcomeShorty »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #26

> The book's investigating team suggested a Jewish man called Arnold van den Bergh was responsible for her and her family's arrests during World War Two. That seems poorly worded. Assigning the 'responsibility' for her arrest to someone other than the people who made her existence illegal is very harsh indeed.

Do not forget it was a national hobby in Holland to sell information on (hidden) jews during WW2.

The initial price was 2,50 (Dutch Guilders) at the start of the war, it went up to 40 towards the end.

Dark numbers are said (no without discussion) to be up to 40% of the jews in hiding where sold out.

Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#32

Post by ZeroGravitas »

odd_perfect_num wrote: post #30
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #26

> The book's investigating team suggested a Jewish man called Arnold van den Bergh was responsible for her and her family's arrests during World War Two. That seems poorly worded. Assigning the 'responsibility' for her arrest to someone other than the people who made her existence illegal is very harsh indeed.

Is it? The claims of this book are disputed, but in general I see no issue with stating that those who collaborated with the Nazi regime are responsible for the consequences. Those who shared information with the Gestapo about where Jews were hiding were knowing accomplices in genocide.

It's easy enough to say "led the gestapo to" or whatever is actually being claimed by the book.

They can be responsible for that, if there is evidence to support it, without being responsible for the arrest. Holding the jewish person at the end of the long chain of actions 'responsible' for the whole situation doesn't really seem that much different from blaming the victims themselves.

Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#35

Post by hpcjoe »

schwartzworld wrote: post #8

My grandmother was the last living Jew I knew who personally experienced any part the Holocaust. Her father was smart enough see the writing on the wall, and to throw whatever wealth he had at the problem of getting them out of Belgium shortly before it became impossible to do so. I'm sure there are others still alive, but she was a kid when it happened, so there can't be many. I grew up in a community filled with ol…

I had aunts, uncles, and various family friends with numbers on their arms. I vividly recall their expression when I asked (I was like 3 or so, late 1960s) if I could get one of those for me. I thought it was cool. I only learned much later, when my older brother came home with a swastika drawn on one of his school binders, what had happened.

This was "the talk". A discussion of the Shoah with my older brother and me, from my parents, who were kids (in the US) during that time. They simplified it somewhat, but it was absolutely horrible regardless.

As an adult, I read about the Evian Conference[1][2]. It was an opportunity to reduce and even, possibly, stop a genocide. All the participants had to do was to open their countries to jewish refugees. Of all of the participants, only 1 did. Not because it was morally the right thing to do. But because he thought it would enrich him.

After learning of many of the rest of the atrocities, the willing/eager participation in these from eastern European countries ... I am generally unwilling to feel sympathetic in the least, towards any country/people/group that participated in this. This includes those jews who turned into collaborators. They are called kapos btw. They existed.

Tieing this all back to today. There is precisely 1 country on the planet that accepts jews from where ever they are as olim, without appealing to other authorities. They enable jews to return from the diaspora to their historical homeland. Had this country existed in 1939, it is unlikely that the Shoah would have happened.

The same forces that allowed, and actively encouraged the Shoah to bloom are play today. Jews are still global targets. Antisemitism has been blossuming.

The difference? We have somewhere to go. And we won't go out quietly into that good night.

As Golda Meir pointed out with regards to our homeland, we have a secret weapon. We have no other place to go. And history has shown that we should never, ever, under any circumstances, trust another nation to provide security.

[1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-evian-...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vian_Conference

Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#36

Post by rsynnott »

denton-scratch wrote: post #17
rsynnott wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's, at best, speculation, and would probably get the authors sued for libel if the person being speculated about wasn't dead. Now, obviously dead people can't (in most jurisdictions) sue for defamation, and that's probably sensible law, but it's fairly distasteful speculation and it's not surprising that the publisher would pull it, particularly after it was debunked.

People have been speculating about who murdered the Princes In The Tower for hundreds of years. Why isn't that considered "distasteful"? What's so wrong with trying to throw new light on old mysteries? Isn't that why there are historians?

I think time makes a difference there, along with the general character of the people involved. "Twenty generations back one of your ancestors killed some children" isn't likely to be particularly concerning to anyone, particularly when most of the obvious candidates are documented to have done far worse than that anyway.

Accusing someone's grandparent of a heinous crime to sell a book is a bit different, and, well, I mean, nothing's stopping you doing it, it's _legal_, but unless you can prove it (as they appear to have failed to), people aren't going to be too thrilled about it.

Like, this wasn't a sober academic paper, it was a mass-market pop-history book.

Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#38

Post by chucksta »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #32
odd_perfect_num wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? The claims of this book are disputed, but in general I see no issue with stating that those who collaborated with the Nazi regime are responsible for the consequences. Those who shared information with the Gestapo about where Jews were hiding were knowing accomplices in genocide.

It's easy enough to say "led the gestapo to" or whatever is actually being claimed by the book. They can be responsible for that, if there is evidence to support it, without being responsible for the arrest. Holding the jewish person at the end of the long chain of actions 'responsible' for the whole situation doesn't really seem that much different from blaming the victims themselves.

If he hadn't been Jewish, does it make a difference?

Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#39

Post by jacquesm »

WelcomeShorty wrote: post #31
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #26

> The book's investigating team suggested a Jewish man called Arnold van den Bergh was responsible for her and her family's arrests during World War Two. That seems poorly worded. Assigning the 'responsibility' for her arrest to someone other than the people who made her existence illegal is very harsh indeed.

Do not forget it was a national hobby in Holland to sell information on (hidden) jews during WW2. The initial price was 2,50 (Dutch Guilders) at the start of the war, it went up to 40 towards the end. Dark numbers are said (no without discussion) to be up to 40% of the jews in hiding where sold out.

A third of the Jews that went into hiding were caught and deported, speculation is that these were betrayed but there isn't any solid proof for this, just a lot of circumstantial evidence, and the Germans were pretty rigorous with their house-to-house searches which would span entire neighborhoods. The very best case for this is one built by Ad van Liempt, but it definitely isn't uncontroversial, as is van Liempt himself, who has more than once been labelled 'careless'.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_van_Liempt

To portray this as a 'national hobby' is beyond disgusting, a very small fraction (Van Liempt identified a band of about 50 individuals) of the Dutch population ended up collaborating with the Germans on this, the bulk did what they could under exceedingly dangerous circumstances risking their own lives and the lives of their families in order to help others.

Re: Anne Frank betrayal book pulled after findings discredited

#40

Post by jacquesm »

chucksta wrote: post #38
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy enough to say "led the gestapo to" or whatever is actually being claimed by the book. They can be responsible for that, if there is evidence to support it, without being responsible for the arrest. Holding the jewish person at the end of the long chain of actions 'responsible' for the whole situation doesn't really seem that much different from blaming the victims themselves.

If he hadn't been Jewish, does it make a difference?

No, but it adds insult to injury. Keep in mind that the Germans used all kinds of pressure including the deportation or execution of family members to get people to betray others.
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